The Life in a Shoe blog author has written an article about why ending an ectopic pregnancy is wrong. See the previous link for the original article which I will be quoting and answering here.
As Christians, we are unabashedly, 100% pro-life. We believe that life begins at conception; that every human life is created in the image of God; and that abortion is wrong in every case. This is where we differ from many other “pro-lifers” who are willing to grant that abortion may be merited in certain cases.
I disagree. And I resent her presumption to speak for all Christians on this matter. Being 100% pro-life means giving the life of the mother at least as much importance as the life of the child. And risking the life of the mother as in ectopic pregnancy seems unwise and anti-life, in my opinion. When it comes to one life or the other, I believe it is morally licit to choose to save your own life, as painful as that is. And believe me, I’ve made that choice, and I know. She can call me a murderer until the cows come home, but that doesn’t make it so, and it doesn’t make her right.
The standard treatment for ectopic pregnancy follows one of 3 courses: chemically induced abortion (usually by means of a drug called methotrexate); removal of the entire fallopian tube which contains the baby or a the affected portion of the tube; or removal of the baby and subsequent repair of the affected fallopian tube.
All 3 approaches directly result in the inevitable death of the child.
However, there is at least one more option: Wait. Be ready, but wait. Treat the mother if necessary but do not kill the child. No abortion.
The primary argument against the Watchful Waiting method of treatment is that it is dangerous to the mother. Alarmists will try to equate it to a death sentence – and for what? The child was doomed from the start, right?
No. The outcome is not so easily predicted as some would have you think.
I think this attitude is naive at best. The author is willing to risk the lives of many for the one in a million baby that might survive.
Yes, there is a high likelihood that the child will die. How high? Nobody really knows, because nobody seems to recommend this approach.
Doesn’t she think that perhaps there’s a reason for that? Doctors aren’t in the business of killing people. That’s not why they become doctors. And if they could figure out a way to save mother an baby, they’d be employing it. But overwhelmingly babies die, and if untreated the mother could too.
There was recently a documented case of anundiagnosed ectopic pregnancy that was delivered by c-section at full term. There are others as well: A baby born in 2000 was attached to the mother’s bowel, as was this one in 2005. This 1999 triplet developed in the fallopian tube, while his two sisters grew in the uterus. The triplet article states that there are 60-100 cases of babies growing outside the womb and surviving.
This information is accurate, but misleading. She can name 4 babies who survived as ectopic pregnancies in a 9 year period from around the world. But she fails to mention the 40 maternal deaths that occur each year in the United States alone. The United States, by the way, which is a developed nation with good healthcare. Statistics don’t exist in a vacuum. It’s not fair to mention those few babies who have survived, and ignore the many women who die right along with their babies.
Yes, these cases made headlines and amazed the whole world, but how many more cases would do so if we didn’t diagnose and automatically abort them? This site seems to indicate that the prognosis for the ectopic child is not entirely hopeless, at least in the case of abdominal pregnancy:
I’m certain a few more babies would make it over the years. But how many more mothers would die? Even with the statistics provided here, which is survival from around the world compared to mortality from just the US (worldwide mortality rates are much higher, especially in underdeveloped nations), there are 10 mothers and babies who die for every mother and baby who lives.
But what about the mother? Is it right to sacrifice her life with so little hope of gaining the life of the child? In the case of abdominal pregnancies that are allowed to continue, the article above goes on to state that:
Mortality and maternal morbidity are directly related to the removal of the placenta during childbirth. The remove of the placenta depends on the degree of invasion, the location of insertion, the involvement of the other organs and the surgical access to the placental blood supply. If it is possible, the complete placental extraction should be done. If not, the placenta should be left at the place, following by occlusion of the umbilical cord. The subsequent management is expectant. The placental reabsorption can be accelerated with methotrexate, selective arterial embolization and secondary laparotomy.
So the life of the mother may be in danger, but she is far from doomed! There are procedures for dealing with the risks of advanced abdominal pregnancy – procedures which allow for the possible survival of the child!
What the author is leaving out of this is that it occurs in less than 2% of all ectopic pregnancy cases. And she (lacking a medical background) also leaves out the many dangers along the way when dealing with an abdominal pregnancy. Again, the information is sketchy and not provided in it’s proper context. Ectopic pregnancy occurs in about 19 out of 1000 pregnancies. 98% of those will be located in the tube. That’s less than 1 in a thousand that will occur in the abdomen. The statistic this author provided of survival of an abdominal pregnancy is 1 in 5000. 1 in 5000 when you’ve got a pregnancy that’s already 1 in a 1000. And even she admits that the mortality rate (even with all that we know) is about 50%. We’re way out of the realm of “statistical possibility” as stated by Doug Phillips. We’re in statistical probability. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of babies will die with or without treatment. And a huge number of mothers will die without treatment.
And then they call women murderers for trying to save their own lives while grieving the loss of a baby that they wanted and dreamed of. Where’s the compassion?
For those pregnancies which implant in the fallopian tube (far more common than abdominal pregnancy), the dangers are surprisingly moderate. Although many will succumb to scare tactics, a plain reading of the statistics can be very reassuring.
STATISTICS
- Currently, up to 1 of every 50-60 pregnancies is estimated to be ectopic.***
- Over 100,000 ectopic pregnancies were reported in the US in 1992.
- 1 out of 2000 ectopic pregnancies ended in the death of the mother for the 1970’s and 1980’s. The mortality rate has fallen even lower in recent years due to advances in medical care. Recent estimates put it at ~3 in 10,000.
- At least 14 studies have documented that 68 to 77 percent of ectopic pregnancies resolve without intervention (American Academy of Family Physicians).
- Tubal rupture occurs in approximately 20% of cases. The statistics seem to indicate that this is the number of women whose initial symptom is tubal rupture, i.e. they receive no treatment at all prior to rupture. Studies indicate that another 10-30% may experience rupture while under medical care.
- Contrary to popular belief, death from rupture is rare where medical attention is available. In the US, 25-50 women die from ectopic pregnancy each year out of about 100,000 reported cases.
I’m amazed that she’s calling these statistics reassuring. She’s correct about the number that resolve on their own, but let’s keep in mind that the resolve being talked about here is spontaneous abortion, the medical term for miscarriage. Yes, ladies, let’s remember that the inflammatory word abortion means that a pregnancy has ended, whether spontaneously or not. And when a fallopian tube ruptures, it causes internal bleeding, shock, infection, and can cause death. 20% of tubes rupture, even when under medical care. That these women survive is because of the excellent care they receive at the hands of their doctors. Using the “wait and see” approach offered by the Vision Forum Ministry types makes the chances much more likely that death will occur for both mother and baby.
After that, the authors math is so far off as to be comical if it weren’t so horribly sad. Comparing the risks of ectopic to the risks of dying in childbirth I find to be especially offensive. I’ll take the risk in childbirth where my baby could survive outside of my womb.
The author of this article misses the bigger picture. She fails to see how lucky we are that we live in a developed country where the risk of death from ectopic pregnancy is so reduced. Keep in mind, however, that it is still the number 1 pregnancy related death in the first trimester. She fails to see that the reason that the death toll is as low as it is stems from our good healthcare and the ability to see that a baby is ectopic and deal with it early.
God created our bodies to work a certain way. Babies were supposed to grow safe and protected in the womb. When that doesn’t happen it always poses great risk to the mother. And to sell women the idea that it’s not Christian to be treated to save their own lives, or that they will be murderers if they do is, in my opinion downright shameful.
It’s sad when one loses a baby, especially when it’s either the mother or the baby. But since the baby is in the mother and can’t live without her, and the mother can continue to live without the baby, it seems to defy logic and reason for the mother to risk her life to continue the pregnancy in the hope that the baby will miscarry without taking her life too.
When ending an ectopic pregnancy, the goal is to preserve the life of the mother. The loss of the baby is an unintended and sad consequence, but by no means immoral.
Edited to add: Since the initial publication of this post, Mrs. In-a-shoe added a link provided by one of her readers that gave five more examples of babies who had survived as ectopic pregnancies and follows those examples with the same question, “Yes, these cases made headlines and amazed the whole world, but how many more cases would do so if we didn’t diagnose and automatically abort them?”. Mrs. Shoe, my answer remains the same:
Here in the United States, with our treatment of termination for ectopic pregnancy, 40 women at least still die from the condition yearly. Your total of 9 examples from all over the world over many years doesn’t compare. Should we start treating ectopic pregnancy the way you suggest, more babies might live, but many many more women will die. It seems that you are totally comfortable with the idea of more women dying each year when they don’t have to. But this pro-life Christian woman is not. Those women’s lives are also valuable, and I support their right to preserve them. And I respectfully disagree with the idea proposed that allowing women to die is pro-life.
Well said, Anne.
I’ve read your story of losing your daughter and just cried. Thank you for telling it.
And thank you for taking on this subject. No one can say that you are not experienced in this issue.
Alisa, that’s what always frosts my cookies (or sets my hair on fire, LOL) about people who presume to write about this topic. DO NOT talk to me or take a stand again this if you haven’t been there… if it hasn’t been YOUR life on the line.
Before Grace, nothing in the world could’ve persuaded me to terminate a pregnancy- not rape, not Down’s, not even a low-risk pregnancy resulting in a terminal child. And then, Dr. Chiu told me I could die and handed me a list of likely complications.
The strange thing is that no one- not my Godly parents, my pastors, elders, trusted Christian mentors, friends, or my pro-life OB- said to do anything other save my own life.
Thanks, Anne for your well thought words on this. I appreciate you bringing all of this to my attention.
It never occured to me before tonight that what I did might be considered an abortion by others. Nonsense!
Funny…..
Now we are “pro-life” with quotes.
First we aren’t “Christians” because we don’t agree with their unbiblical theology. Now we are not “pro-life” because we don’t agree with their reckless disregard for the life of a woman in a life-threatening situation.
Before there was surgical treatment for ectopic pregnancies, 1 out of 3 women died. That is one of the statistics I found in my searches. That seems pretty imminent (in the “classical” sense, whatever that means) to me.
Thankfully these people are NOT doctors. Thank God for pro-life doctors who are actually pro-life and consider the mother’s life important enough to protect, too.
What happens to the young patriarchal wife who loses her fertility because of an ectopic pregnancy left untreated?
Does her husband follow the biblical example and find a concubine or second wife to produce “seed” for his earthly kingdom? Since the VF/Patriocentric lifestyle depends so heavily upon having lots of children, what will these people do in these cases?
I wonder what the FLDS does in these cases? We already know that the husband/father decides whether or not his wife/daughter will receive medical care. I suppose that having multiple wives means that losing one wife isn’t a huge deal since the others will step in and mother the children and care for the needs of the husband.
Is there a connection between patriarchy and the decline of regard and respect for women? The more patriarchal one gets the less women are valued and the more they are treated like breeding stock or property? What is to come in the future by looking at history? Will we see fathers and husbands throwing their wives and daughters out to rapists and perverts in order to preserve their own dignity and save their own lives? What lesson does the Bible have for us when we study the connection between patriarchy and general regard for women? Is this something we really want to go back to or shall we learn from the lessons that history holds?
I guess I am seeing a decline in regard for wmen after reading some of the comments on ectopic pregancy and calling women murderers for seeking needed medical treatment.
If the patriarchalists can wax eloquent about alleged connections between the rise of feminism in the church making way for homosexual ministers then certainly we can look at the same thing, only in reverse, right?
I think Doug Phillips has seriously twisted both the definition of common law justifiable homicide, and the understanding of imminent harm to make his point. He’s a good lawyer, but it makes for very bad medicine.
Doug sells the idea that in common law justifiable homicide the aggressor (or in this case the baby) must have intent to harm. In fact, in reality, that’s not the case legally. The case is always if the person who acts (in this case the mother) had reason to believe that their life was in danger. And I see no reason, when looking at all the medical information offered, to see any other logical assumption.
Even pro-life doctors believe that treatment of ectopic pregnancy is a necessity because the mother’s life is in danger. I think neither Mr. Phillips nor Mrs. In-a-Shoe realize how quickly a woman can bleed to death after her fallopian tube ruptures.
Doug also sells imminent harm as something that absolutely will occur right now. Well, if I have an ectopic pregnancy, I might not be in danger right now. But then again, perhaps I could. And the legal standard is always what the person (in this case the mother) believes to be true. And she is in imminent danger medically speaking (which is different than a situation in which you’re being attacked by someone). Medically speaking ectopic pregnancy is always emergent and necessitates immediate action to preserve the life and fertility of the mother.
Doug Phillips wants to paint life threatening pregnancy as mother against child. But as a mother who had to make the heartbreaking decision to deliver a baby early for safety reasons (my baby couldn’t live outside of my body even at full term) I reject that the scenario is actually set up that way.
In my opinion it’s the woman against whatever is threatening her. If it’s the expanding organ or tube, or placenta that won’t adhere to the uterine wall, that is what we’re trying to fix. The loss of the baby is, for lack of a better term, collateral damage. It’s devastating, heart breaking, and hardly an act of cold blooded murder.
Corrie, good points. Perhaps they’re headed in the direction of Christian polygamy.
And, you’re correct in that many women in the FLDS were denied proper medical care for pregnancy. They didn’t want “gentiles” delivering the women’s babies.
Thank you for making the point Cally—no matter how much we THINK we will or will not do something, we really do not know until we are smack in the middle of the situation.
I’ve told my story before on TW and on my blog, and honest to Betsy right now I don’t have time or mental energy to go thru it again in great detail. I’ve been pregnant 5 times. Two babies died in utero, one was born perfectly healthy, and two were born with the same genetic disease and have faced various surgeries, therapies, and treatments in their short little lives. Since, my husband and I have been thru a great deal of genetic testing and we know now that we carry a rare trait that will result in the baby being affected 50% of the time (1 out of 2). If the baby is affected, there is about a 70% chance the baby will die before birth. If you’re into statistics, you can say that in our REAL life pregnancies, 40% of the time, the baby dies. 20% of the time the baby is healthy, and 40% of the time the baby is sick (and sometimes VERY sick).
I can say with absolute and God honest sincerity that I am PRO LIFE. However, birthing dead babies one after another is not something I can handle ever again. I love children, I really love MY children, but we will not be having any more for my own personal sanity. We just cannot go thru it again.
I like to say that before I had kids I was a GREAT parent. I could tell you what I would do, would not do, and why.
The hard truth is that you really do not know what you will do until you walk thru the fire.
Thank you so much for sharing your story here. You truly have walked through fire, and I certainly won’t judge you for not wanting to continue to get burned for a pointless principle. (((((hug)))))
Anne, all hail from OS! Two hours, that is how long it took for me to reach the point of not being able to do anything else for me. I called 911 IMMEDIATELY as soon as I felt the rupture. It was at 11:04 on a wednesday night. I was in surgery by 1am and had already had 4 units of blood, and 2 liters of fluids between the ambulance ride and the ER and my doctor STILL told my mom and husband that had it been any longer, there wouldn’t have been anything they could do. I would have already bled to death. Hmm, just wait huh. I wish I could have found a way to continue the pregnancy, my pregnancy however WAS NEVER VIABLE. There was NO fetus visible, just an empty sac, should I have tried to keep that one growing???? It was hard for me to make that decision and I know it is exponentially harder for those that see a live pregnancy knowing there really is no hope to continue. How dare they suggest we don’t value life!
[...] that want men and women and their “Christian families” to fit into little tidy boxes or die in the trying. (No, really. Meaning literally die [...]
Misty, I am so sorry for your loss. It is absurd to hurl all these names at women, saying we aren’t pro-life. In fact, I really have a hard time with anyone hurling names at women who aren’t pro-life and who at some terribly low point in their lives, made the choice to abort a child. I know that exit polling shows that over 90% of those women would have made the choice to birth their babies had they had ONE SINGLE PERSON willing to come alongside them. I also know that women who abort their babies experience a pain that will never go away. Ever. They will live it and will have to find ways to address it. Praise be to God. His mercy and compassion and grace and forgiveness flow into crevices in our lives that we don’t even realize we have!
I wonder what the rate of maternal/baby survival is in a TUBAL, which is the type of ectopic I had.
What is one to do once the tube ruptures? Which it will in 99.99% to 100% of cases. Wait and let the mom die, because intervening would kill the child. Or is it OK then? Is she waiting in a hospital, because when that tube rupturs she could die before treatment. 10% of all maternal deaths in the US are still because of ectopics.
I wonder what decision she would have made when faced with the same decision. I hope she would not decide to leave her children with no mother.
When you are sitting in the ER room, then you make the decision, and the judgement.
After a year, I still struggle everyday with the fact that I signed a piece of paper that ended the life of my little baby. I did that, and I live with that. And if I had to I would do it again.
I do not believe God wants us to take foolish risks with our lives. They are his gift, and without them we will not be able to have future children or love and raise the ones we have already…
I’m guessing “Live in a Shoe” is Elena? I really can’t understand either her hateful and WILLFULLY twisted facts or Phillip’s downright IGNORANT and deliberately malicious accusations. What is WRONG with these people? They’re just awful. It seems that Mrs. Shoe has aborted her heart and that Phillips..well heck, he’s just a judgemental S.O.B. I’m sorry, but I’m convinced that’s the truth.
Anne, thank you SO much for providing these vital facts! You may well have saved women’s lives and spiritual/mental health with your words.
I’m so sorry you had these vultures lurking around after your loss. I really don’t think they give a second’s care about right or wrong; they’re just sharks around for blood and tears. May God forgive them.
Wow! I know I’m late to this conversation, but let me commend Anne for the great article.
I must agree with everyone here that Mrs. Shoe is off. I consider myself “pro-life” (as she calls me), but if I ever were presented with an ectopic pregnancy I would probably have to terminate. Not because I’m selfish or don’t want another child, but because it is a severe threat to my life.
Doctors don’t terminate ectopic pregnancies for no reason. They terminate them because they are a danger to both the life of the mother and the baby is unlikely to survive. The cases of survival (of either mother or child) are extremely, extremely rare. Every pro-life person I have encountered has agreed that ectopic pregnancies do not even fall under the category of induced abortion. In fact I haven’t yet met someone who is pro-life that believes that the life of the mother should not be protected.
Oh wait, continuation,
I remember someone sending me a message in Facebook when I was pregnant (back in early 2007) because I said on a discussion group (pro-life nonetheless) that if a mother’s life is at a significant risk it would not be wrong of her to terminate the pregnancy. The woman stated that I’m not really “pro-life” and that I’d make a bad mother. Real classy character.
Now tell me, wouldn’t the “bad” mother (if she already had existing children) just knowingly allow herself to die, leaving the children she already has behind? Wouldn’t it be unwise of the mother to continue a pregnancy if she knew without a doubt she’d die if she did?
I guess I just don’t get some people.
“In fact I haven’t yet met someone who is pro-life that believes that the life of the mother should not be protected.”
Check out American Life League. They oppose abortion in every case no matter what and teach that there is never a case in which a pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. I was the editor of these wackos’ magazine almost 15 years ago and found it a very difficult place to work. One of the last straws was when the husband of the president prayed that the guy who bombed the Atlanta abortion clinic would not be found by the authorities during our daily staff meeting. That was pretty much it for me. I was gone within a month.
Richard, the hatred of those fools is unbelievable. Sounds like the VF, pretty much. I’d even support the choice for abortion after a rape, if it was done early enough, so it’s doubly unbelievable for me that they’d preach against abortion in a life-threatening situation. People like that don’t give a flying whit about babies or life; all they really care about is control and power.
Jennifer – I personally would prefer for women who have been raped to turn on the person who raped them rather than murdering the innocent child. I’m very glad that my son’s birth mother did not follow the advice of folks who told her that she should murder him simply because he was the product of rape.
This is not an easy issue and I fully understand the need for us to be as compassionate as possible to mothers in sticky situations. But killing the baby is not a good decision. Ectopic pregnancy and a few other truly life threatening cases present a situation that I think should be decided between a woman, her husband, and her physician without any outside interference.
But when the life of the mother is not in danger, murdering the most innocent among us to cover the crime of a vile rapist just boggles my mind.
How odd that this discussion has powered back up now! I just heard that the this “Life in a Shoe” post has been published in Samaritan Ministries most recent newsletter.
So I guess Samaritan does not pay for care for a woman who opts to have a salpingectomy before her tube ruptures and she bleeds to death?
“I’m very glad that my son’s birth mother did not follow the advice of folks who told her that she should murder him”
He was not a “him” or an anything after it first happened. Don’t even get me started on that. Rape victims who terminate early embryos are not murderers and should not pay for the trauma with nine months of misery. That was not an invitation for an argument, merely a statement of what I believe. It is not for us or anyone to decide on these matters; it is strictly only the business, choice and right of the women involved.
“when the life of the mother is not in danger, murdering the most innocent among us to cover the crime of a vile rapist just boggles my mind”
What boggles my mind is that women like that are judged by a society who expects them to suffer nine months of daily reminders of the vile act that was committed against them. It shouldn’t be hard for you to understand that a person wouldn’t want to be stuck with something planted inside of them against their will for almost a year. This matter is for women and God to decide, without any outside interference.
Just wanted to say, Richard, that I’m sorry if it seemed like I bit your head off. This is just a topic that’s very sensitive to me, especially since I know a woman who was gang-raped while paralyzed from a rape drug. If she’d been pregnant, I would have driven her to an abortion clinic and fought anyone to the death, tooth and nail, who tried to stand in her way or dared to judge her.
Plus, I freely admit that it irks me when men try to take a stand against abortion (ESPECIALLY when it comes to rape) since there’s no way they can ever know what it’s like. I know that you’re not one to scream “murderer” at such women, so I can respect your opinion as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone.
RichardD,
I always felt that American Life League was a little off. First thing that turned me off was their “The Pill Kills Babies Campaign”. There is no unfounded proof that the pill causes a very early abortion, but people in ALL would not hear any opposing argument to their “the pill kills babies no matter what any opposing research says”.
I can’t believe that they prayed for an abortion clinic bomber to not get caught. So apparently, according to ALL, it’s ok for someone to kill an abortion doctor but it’s not ok for someone to kill a fetus or unborn baby. Pro-Life means protecting every life, not just that of an unborn baby, but that of someone who may lead a very, very sinful life. The Lord says that vengeance is His. Their logic is just as twisted as those that believe in abortion on demand.
militarywifey – ALL’s stand against the Pill has a lot more to do with the Catholic church’s stand against contraception than with whatever scientific and biological facts exist.
Oh – and after I mentioned ALL, I went to their web site, which I had not done for a while. And it looks like Celebrate Life magazine is now defunct. I couldn’t find any evidence of it there.
Interesting.
“First thing that turned me off was their “The Pill Kills Babies Campaign”. There is no unfounded proof that the pill causes a very early abortion, but people in ALL would not hear any opposing argument to their “the pill kills babies no matter what any opposing research says”
Oh, but it’s more than just nuts like them who believe that, I’m sorry to say. Randy Alcorn, one of my favorite authors, actually believes that nonsense! He also believes it’s okay for protesters to stand “peacefully” in front of abortion clinics and form a human barrier to keep women from entering. I guess his mental process of this matter ain’t too bright. It’s amazing how otherwise intelligent people sometimes say the worst things.
“it looks like Celebrate Life magazine is now defunct.”
Richard, that’s possibly the best news I’ve had all year.
“Oh, but it’s more than just nuts like them who believe that, I’m sorry to say. Randy Alcorn, one of my favorite authors, actually believes that nonsense!”
I know, I’ve read the book by Alcorn. I wasn’t convinced. I have an MS in Statistics and I could see through all the holes in the research. I have no problem with people who don’t agree with the pill for that reason. I just have a problem when people say “the pill kills babies, it’s SCIENTIFIC FACT” when it has never been scientifically proven. I know people who have said “I just don’t feel right about the pill” and that is fine, just don’t condemn those of us who don’t feel it is wrong.
“He also believes it’s okay for protesters to stand “peacefully” in front of abortion clinics and form a human barrier to keep women from entering.”
Yea, and he got arrested for that. It set him back a ton of money. I am all for his right to peacefully protest, but when you block the entrance you are breaking the law no matter how “peaceful” it may be.
“Yea, and he got arrested for that. It set him back a ton of money”
He did?? Thank God! Nothing I like better than hearing about people like him being put in their place. Maybe that taught him something.
This is in regards to the comments made by Jennifer…
1. Aborting a baby that was concieved as a result of rape is murder.
To say that it’s wrong for us to disapprove of a woman who aborts her baby because it was the result of rape is, simply, crazy. We are not supposed to judge one another, BUT, we are supposed to stand up for what is GODLY and GOOD and RIGHT. It is NOT okay for a woman who was raped to abort her child. It’s meaningless to say “She’ll have to deal with the pain and suffering of an unwanted pregnancy for nine months”. Absolutely meaningless. GOD ordained, before the foundation of the world, that that woman was going to be raped and would concieve a baby. You are right when you say it is between her and God, however, God would choose life. God would have her to show mercy and compassion, even when she was treated with absolute disdain. Two wrongs never, ever, EVER make a right. It doesn’t matter how much emotional gunk a person will go through, that will never justify doing something sinful. Also, what does it matter that the pregnancy is unwanted? Many things that happen to us in life are unwanted. We lose our jobs, fall and break our legs, and hundreds of other “unwanted” things. So what, we should all commit suicide? Nonsense! But that is along the lines of what you are arguing!
2. It is a GOOD thing for men to make a stand against abortion!
Hello! I love it when men, godly men, stand up and speak out against abortion. Too often women face the cold, dark choice of committing an abortion either alone, without the father by their side, or with an ungodly man who would rather not have the responsibility whispering in their ear. I don’t think your opinions are godly, or very respectful of men in general. That is actually “irks” you when men speak out against abortion just boggles my mind. Men have a part in pregnancy, too! They may not carry the baby, but they did have something to do with it being in there in the first place! Men have JUST as much responsibility as women when it comes to pregnancy.
3. A baby is still a baby, no matter how long it’s been in the womb.
Supporting a woman getting an abortion (even one to stop a pregnancy caused by rape) BEFORE a certain point is not very logical. Whether the baby is 2 weeks gestation or 24 weeks, it’s still a BABY, a LIFE, something created by God FOR A GOOD PURPOSE. Even a baby whose father was a rapist is loved by God.
I’m not usually one to post comments, but I couldn’t let these points go unmade, especially on a site that is largely made up of Christian women’s voices.
As for ectopic pregnancies, I believe that saving the life of the mother is first and foremost. That is clearly, explicitly different, however, from a pregnancy caused by rape. In those cases, LIFE should be respected and honoured.
Sarah, you speak some of the most foolish words I’ve ever seen. You dare accuse our God of causing a woman to be raped? You allow painfully clear scientific facts, such as the difference between embryos and unborn babies, to be overridden by your own over-emotional subjectiveness? Feelings in matters like these without facts are nothing more than slobbering tripe. Men have no business whatsoever in trying to dictate matters of abortion and neither do naive women like you.
“To say that it’s wrong for us to disapprove of a woman who aborts her baby because it was the result of rape is, simply, crazy. It’s meaningless to say “She’ll have to deal with the pain and suffering of an unwanted pregnancy for nine months”. Absolutely meaningless.”
Your ignorance, foolishness, and cold-blooded cruelty towards women who endure this is astounding. I really don’t even consider you a worthy person to discuss this matter with. You clearly have no idea what it’s like to suffer as rape-survivors do; their pain is meaningless to you, as are the facts in this matter. Laws about privacy, scientific medical research, and I daresay restraining orders were made for people like you. I sincerely hope no rape victim ever stumbles across your heartless person.
Military – If I recall correctly, Randy Alcorn was busted prior to the RICO act, so his blocking of the clinic entrances would not have been against the law at that time. It may not have been the best course of action, but it was not illegal.
Sarah – I’m glad to know that someone else here sees this the same way. Thanks for the comment. I don’t think taking a human life is ever a good way to handle something. No matter how painful it may have been or how painful the future course of action may be.
Killing the taking the life of an innocent child is much, much worse than using PVC pipe to discipline that child a few years later.
Jennifer – You’re simply as wrong as you can be on this. You’re wrong scientifically. You’re wrong morally. You’re wrong biblically. And your typical over-the-top statements cannot be ignored on this point.
Richard, I can’t believe you’d agree with her words that a woman’s suffering through nine months of a rape-planted pregnancy is meaningless. This serves to further prove my earlier thought: men have no business getting involved in abortion.
I am not wrong scientifically, Richard; try looking into the facts. After agreeing with a woman who says that a rape victim’s suffering is meaningless, you have a lot of nerve accusing me of being wrong morally. You know absolutely nothing about this matter, and this becomes clearer with every statement. Try doing what men do best: using facts over all-holy emotion. It is a scientific fact that embryos are cell-masses at the beginning of pregnancy; it is a fact that they feel nothing at removal, whereas a fully-developed woman feels a GREAT deal. Stick to the facts
My typical over-the-top statements? Richard, you have a knack for preaching about matters you know nothing about and sounding cold-blooded when you do. Did you and Sarah both miss my statement that I know a woman who was brutalized in a gang-rape? Yet you dare call me morally incorrect for standing up for her and women like her? You are horrifically disprespecting women like the one I know and EVERY woman who suffered as she does. You value a mass of cells without a heartbeat more than a woman with feelings, a heart, and a mind that must remember every second of pain and humiliation.
No, Jennifer, you are very wrong. You’re accusing me of being overly emotional, yet I am the one that is remaining calm. You are using harsh statements, describing me as naive, ignorant, foolish, and cold-blooded. I am none of these. I have been hurt, I have been wounded, I have gone through more emotional and physical pain than I would like to share with you. I do not hold to my stance based upon a lack of knowledge or empathy. I hold to my stance based upon what is Biblical, and also what is Scientific.
Do you even know how complex a cell is? How wonderfully beautiful and well designed that “cell mass” actually is? Even one cell has all of the DNA imprints to make it fully human. From the absolute very beginning of a human life, it is human. There’s no mistaking it for, say, the “cell mass” of a dog, or a fish, or a horse. It is uniquely, perfectly, human.
As for them feeling nothing at removal, there, again, you are wrong. The nervous system begins to develop very, very early in a baby’s life.
The first 10-12 weeks after conception, while they still weigh between 4 and 14 grams:
The child’s eyes have developed their colour
Nearly all their organs have formed and are functioning
Their fingers and toes have developed
Their hair and nails have started to grow
Their genitals are distinctively male/female
The muscles in their intestinal walls have started to practise the contractions that will allow them to digest food
Their vocal chords have begun to form
Their liver starts to function
The pancreas starts to produce insulin.
None of this would be possible without a fully functional nervous system. We feel the sense of pain through our nervous system.
I am not naive. I am very well studied in biology, and physiology.
“Sarah, you speak some of the most foolish words I’ve ever seen. You dare accuse our God of causing a woman to be raped?”
I am not “accusing” God of anything. I am simply stating what GOD has said Himself in His word:
“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Rom. 8:28).
“No trial has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tested beyond what you are able, but with the trial will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it” (1 Cor. 10:13).
God is IN CONTROL of everything that happens in this world. He is also Good.
YES, it is a horrible thing to be raped. YES, there is much suffering involved. BUT, YES, God does allow bad things to happen to us. However, He is GOOD and FAITHFUL and He will be there, carrying us through those dark times, giving us strength.
Some further Biblical references that speak to God’s control and sovereignty over EVERYTHING, even the bad stuff….
Acts 15:18
God predetermined (knew) all His works from eternity
Matt. 6:8
Our Father knows our needs before we ask.
Eph. 1:1-2:10
God predetermined man’s salvation in Christ before the foundation (i.e., creation; Eph. 1:4; 2:10) of the world (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 11:2).
I’m sorry that you don’t feel that I’m worthy to talk to, Jennifer, since I did and still do believe that you are worthy to talk to. Though I disagree wholeheartedly with your views, I still value you as a person, and I don’t want you to think that I have any hatred for you. Any discussion that I have with you, I intend it to be helpful. I’m sorry if I seem angry or argumentative, however, that does not mean I think I am wrong. Perhaps I was a bit emotional in my first post, and I hope that this one was less “emotion” more intellect.
~Sarah
(thanks, RichardD, for the support)
Jennifer, you are making false statements. We do not value a baby over your friend, who went through something that no one should suffer. They have EQUAL value. They BOTH, as God’s creatures, deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. But like I said before, two wrongs do not make a right. Murdering the baby would not bring any dignity or self-worth back to the woman. For that, she should look to God, for He is the provider of Peace beyond all understanding.
And again, you are assuming that I have not suffered. That is not true. I have been hurt, but I have experienced peace and forgiveness, through God and Jesus Christ, and therefore I am calm and able to look at this subject less like a woman who has been wounded, and more like a child of God.
~Sarah
Yes Sarah, you showed less emotion this time, but you were far from calm in your first post.
“The first 10-12 weeks after conception”
Sarah, I’m not speaking of 10-12 weeks after. I’m talking about RIGHT after conception. Right after conception, it is just a mass of cells and it does not deserve equal consideration to a fully-developed woman.
You will need to word things more carefully in the future, Sarah. I’ve discussed the abhorrent matter of Calvinism and “God plans every evil occurance before it happens” schlock with people before, but none have been so clumsy as to claim that God ordains rape and evil. All the emotion in your first post was in defense of embryonic cells, while coldly dismissing women. I’m not trying to tell you how you regard these women, but how you APPEARED to with your words. Do you realize that your words practically spit in the face of women like the one I know? Do you realize you seemed to be saying, “Buck up, ladies, you’re nothing compared to the tiny cells inside you and God wnated you to be raped anyway”? Sarah, you have no idea how your words shattered my heart. They did indeed seem cold-blooded and cruel to me.
Thank you for being patient enough to clarify your feelings.
Hi Jennifer
Again, your justification for the abortion is not logical. The “mass of cells” is still completely, uniquely human! A human baby at 1 days old is still a human baby, just less developed. You’re arguing that because it is young it has less worth. By the same logic, would you argue that a 2 year old child has less worth than a 5 year old child? Or that I, as a 21 year old, have less worth than a friend of mine who is a month older? Whether they are 1 day old or 38 days old or 99 days old, the baby has WORTH and VALUE and LIFE.
“I’ve discussed the abhorrent matter of Calvinism and “God plans every evil occurance before it happens” schlock with people before, but none have been so clumsy as to claim that God ordains rape and evil.”
So why is there evil in the world? Why do things like rape happen? Why do we as Christians have the gall to claim that our God is a good one? Why isn’t God in control of the world He created? Who is in control?
I don’t appreciate being called clumsy, I chose my words very carefully. I know exactly what I believe, and I know why I believe it.
Also, I am not coldly dismissing anyone. Again, you are assuming that I have not been wounded or hurt. I know what those women have gone through. I’m not saying that the babies inside them have more worth. I’m saying they have EQUAL worth, that they shouldn’t be dismissed or discarded because their father was a rapist.
“By the same logic, would you argue that a 2 year old child has less worth than a 5 year old child?”
Fallacious comparison. These are both children with brains and hearts. Just-fertilized cells have none of these. We’re obviously never going to agree on this, so it’s pointless to argue it. Just keep in mind that by scientific facts, just fertilized eggs are NOT equal to fully-developed humans or even fetuses. If you believe an egg splashed with sperm is the equal to a baby, fine, but these are your feelings alone and not facts.
“I chose my words very carefully.”
Not carefully enough. Telling me that God wanted those women raped is about the most clumsy and cruel way you could have worded it. It’s certainly not the best way to explain Calvinism.
“So why is there evil in the world? Why do things like rape happen?”
Check out Genesis, the story about the man, the woman and the apple. It’s pretty well-explained there. God gave man a choice, and they disobeyed. Free will can be a b*tch, but it’s better than puppetry.
“I don’t appreciate being called clumsy”
Well I’m sorry, but I didn’t appreciate being told that my loving God pre-ordained for my dear friend to be paralyzed and gang-raped. I would say we’re even now, but I think there’s little comparison between those two statements.
Calvinism is not about puppetry. It’s about God, who is All-Powerful and All-knowing, as it is clearly stated in His word.
Free will does not limit God. He doesn’t tiptoe around the world on eggshells, saying “Oh know Oh know if that happens I’ll violate free will!”
That is a castrated God. That is a God with no power.
Free will is like this: A goldfish in a bowl has free will. It can swim to the top of the bowl, or the bottom, it can swim in and out of the castle in the fishbowl, and it can eat and breathe and think goldfishy thoughts. It CAN’T, however, determine what happens to it’s life BEYOND what it can control. The person who owns that goldfish does.
We, as people, have free will. We live our lives as we choose, we can respond to things in our lives as we want to. What should guide that, though, is what God has said in His word. We shouldn’t commit murder, because that is wrong.
That God is in control of our lives and our circumstances does NOT make us puppets. It makes us a part of His plan, His creation.
It says in Daniel 2:20 – 22
Daniel answered and said:
“Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, for wisdom and might are His. And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding. He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, and light dwells with Him.”
From that, I gather that God is pretty much in control.
2 Peter 1:3 -
As His divine power has given to us ALL THINGS that pertain to LIFE and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.
Read Psalm 139 to see God’s perfect knowledge of man, everything in his (or her) life.
Also, in Psalm 139 (my favourite Psalm) are a gathering of verses that speaks to the wonder of what happens when a baby is concieved, and how amazing and awe-inspiring it is.
You scorn a newly concieved child as “sperm upon egg”. The SECOND a sperm and an egg are joined, the child begins to grow. The cells begin to separate. The very SECOND.
If you want to destroy a “sprem on an egg”, you’d have to do it instantaneously. Even waiting a day, and you are killing a human baby. A very very young human baby.
I am not in error either scientifically or biblically. You haven’t brought any biblical references to support what you have said… I wonder why.
I am sorry for what happened to your friend, but consider this… Our loving God also allowed
- Hundreds of babies to be murdered by Herod in the time of Jesus’ early childhood
- Cain to murder his brother Abel
- The world to be destroyed by a Flood
- The Israelites to be enslaved for hundreds of years
- Early Christians to be persecuted, imprisoned, and executed by the Romans
- And the BIG one, His own Perfect, Sinless, Spotless Son to die upon the terrible cross.
God IS in control, and bad things DO happen. They ARE a part of His great plan. I never said it was easy to accept. It just IS.
Despite this lively conversation, I have to get up very early for work tomorrow, so I am going to shut down my computer and go to bed.
God Bless you, Jennifer.
~Sarah
“If you want to destroy a “sprem on an egg”, you’d have to do it instantaneously.”
That’s exactly what I think you should do. After-morning pills are essential at hospitals for this reason.
“I am not in error either scientifically or biblically. You haven’t brought any biblical references to support what you have said… I wonder why.”
I wouldn’t say you’re in error, just exaggerating the development, or human worth, of a newly conceived egg. Still, that’s just my opinion. Again, we’ll just have to see that differently. I don’t bring Biblical references because I don’t think I need to. Abortion is ultimately neither supported nor strongly opposed by the Bible.
As for free will, God allows many things, but I believe this is because sin entered the world, not because He wishes for them to occur.
I really can’t discuss this matter in length because it’s too painful for me. I do appreciate the thoughts you’ve offered, Sarah. I’m sorry I ever unwittingly distracted this topic from Ectopic pregnancy; that was never my intention.
God Bless you too, dear sister.
“If I recall correctly, Randy Alcorn was busted prior to the RICO act, so his blocking of the clinic entrances would not have been against the law at that time.”
He was arrested; therefore, he did something illegal. And thank God he was, because I hope it knocked some humility into his holier-than-thou noggin.
Busted does not equal guilty, Jennifer. I’ve been busted nine times for pro-life activism. I’ve never been found guilty.
But you’ve never blocked a clinic, Richard; that’s the difference. Besides, Military wife said Alcorn lost some money. Unless she meant his book sales went down, that sounds to me like he was convicted in some way by court of law.
RichardD and Jennifer,
Here’s the link to exactly what happened to Alcorn. In case you are interested:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/april/7.90.html
It’s called a Pastor Without a Paycheck.
Thanks MilitaryWifey. I actually met Randy Alcorn at a clinic protest once. He’s a pretty impressive guy. I don’t recall when the RICO Act was first used against clinic protestors, but it was after 1990, so it is my impression from this article that these were civil suits and not Federal penalties.
Yes thank you, militarywifey. I’ve felt feral satisfaction before, though I never thought I’d feel it against this man in those circumstances. What he went through, from prison to personal life to almost financial ruin, was perfectly fitting to his crime. The only thing impressive about him in that regard was the size of his monstrous pride: sacrificing his family’s comfort and risking possible financial ruin for his own personal cause. I recall the words about his wife, “She despised being the object of others’ sympathy. “I wanted to take people aside and say, ‘You know, we’re not nuts.’ ” Yes you were, sweetie, and I don’t sympathize with you but pity you. Glad your husband (hopefully) grew up.
“A baby born in 2000 was attached to the mother’s bowel”
My God! I don’t think I ever caught that line before. How horrid
I really don’t know about Mr. Alcorn, as I have never met him personally. I only know a few things:
1. I don’t agree with his report on birth control being abortifacient because all the research he cites is either outdated or unreliable (because of small sampling). This is my stats background speaking.
2. I believe that his intentions, initially, were good in the pro-life movement. However, I think that the more he begun to think about abortion (and how the majority of abortions are not for rape, incest, or life of the mother), the more he became enraged about it. I think that is why he started the whole “human barrier” thing which I do think took abortion protesting to an extreme.
3. I think he is a good writer and he doesn’t strike me as a Doug Phillips type that exalts himself above everyone. I think that he just let his anger against abortion get the best of him and hurt him in more ways than one. I believe he is a godly man, but I do respectfully disagree with him on his method of “peaceful” protesting (which I hope he’s abandoned) as well as his view on chemical birth control.
Jennifer,
How many babies are born attached to women’s bowels that don’t kill her and somehow survive?
There is a reason stories like this make the news and it’s because they are uncommon. Apparently Mr. Phillips and Ms. Shoe have no knowledge of basic medicine and the woman’s reproductive system. Babies are supposed to be in the UTERUS!
Exactly, militarywife. They always claim knowledge to matters they know little about and I’m glad the gals here know enough to refute it.
I agree about Randy Alcorn. I have a calendar with his beautiful words about heaven and it blessed me greatly; I look foreward to reading the book “Tell me about heaven”. As long as I know his past of literally forcing his views on others is over, I can forgive him and just enjoy his writing. Everyone does something stupid in their life. Just look at me and the Pearls: I like them and enjoy some of their sources, inspite of the fact that I totally disagree with some of their past writings.
So I should have let myself die (hemmorage to death) with my ectopic pregnancy, and left my other 2 children without a mother? That’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. Walk a mile in my shoes, then judge me.
I know how you feel, Laurie. Really.
Hi I believe I am 100% pro life, unfortunately I recently had a ruptured ectopic and was told I had 1 hour to live, I refused to have any emergency surgery until I spoke to a Cathoilc Priest. The priest told me there was no choice but to go through surgery it was the baby’s death or the baby’s and my death. I believe this was God speaking through the priest.