Many of you may be wondering who I am. Although I cannot go into too much detail, I will give you some understanding of where I am coming from in relation to Vision Forum and why I loathe VFM, hyper-patriarchy, and their ilk. My first encounter with VFM was not through the website; in fact, though I write about them now, I actually have very little time to devote to reading their websites. In my opinion, it is a waste of time. So much cyber ink and paper is wasted on the minutiae of how to live the truly holy Christian life. Can women not occupy themselves with far more important things for their souls and minds than how long or loose one’s dress is or what swimwear is appropriate??
I have friends who follow Vision Forum and similar teachings, and I also know a family that has very close personal ties to Doug Phillips. I was confronted by a fellow church member and basically called an adulterer and a harlot for choosing to practice birth control—that I was effectually castrating my husband. Did it matter that it was my husband’s choice too? Did it matter that I HATE pregnancy and each one makes me sick every day, all day?? Did it matter that my post-partum hormones sent me into depression? Did it matter that I contemplated killing myself? Did it matter that I planned out my suicide multiple times—where I’d go, what I’d wear, how I’d do it, etc.? Did it matter that I had borderline psychotic episodes? Did it matter that I had moments of homicidal rage against my husband and wanted to kill him? Did it matter that many days I couldn’t take care of my family because I laid in bed trying to sleep and hoping I would never wake up? Nope. All that mattered was that I was taking control over something that was God’s domain—my womb. Even if VF and Quiverfull were correct about family planning, I would still choose to live in sin (using birth control), rather than to lose my mind and my family. If God’s will is to take away my sanity or my life or my family, it will be through means that are not of my doing (for instance, Alzheimer’s disease, a car accident, etc.). Sorry, but I’m not willing to walk to the guillotine for birth control. For Christ? Yes. For having a larger family? No way—that is what adoption is for. The end result of me “opening my womb up to God” would be either a suicide, a murder-suicide, or life in a mental institution. Who would raise my ten kids then?
Two words for quiverfull advocates: Andrea Yates.
Laura {{{HUGS}}}} !!
Obviously, you weren’t trusting God enough.
*dripping sarcasm*
Seriously, though. . . As much as QF-types and conservative Christians don’t want to claim them, Andrea Yates and Lynn Paddock and many more who aren’t in the media limelight are the result of the realities of living in a world marred by sin, mixed with ideologies that look to fitting into a “good Christian family” mold–instead of looking to Christ.
Denying post-partum depression or psychosis doesn’t make them go away. Denying spousal and child abuse done with “good intentions” doesn’t make those go away. Instead, how often do these VF and other ideologies push vulnerable people to the brink?
Nor does denying the fact that everyone’s fertility is different. Some can’t get pregnant at all, whereas others (like me) are fertile again at 2 mos post partum, despite 24/7 breastfeeding. My body was broken from having 5 babies in 6 years. Not to mention the fact that the children themselves suffered a poorer quality of mothering than they should have had, because of the simple fact that I am only one person and have only so much to give. Watching my friends who space their babies 3 years or so apart has made me so jealous sometimes…to have that much time to give to a new member of the family…seems so healthy and so right.
QF measure quantity over quality, or, more often, preaches quantity AND quality: have babies non-stop, homeschool, be a sex goddess for your hubby, mother your children, keep your house spotless, grind your own wheat and bake your own bread, practice weekly hospitality, blah blah blah…
Ack! One mere human is supposed to do all of those things and do them *all* WELL (or you’ve failed in your calling)? No small wonder so many of us crawl out of the patrio paradigm, broken and bleeding.
I’ve had the severe PPD too and it completely sucks the life out of you. I have been able to space my four babies out about every 3 years (non-hormonal methods) and it’s how the Lord let me survive. Also having gone through a life threatening pregnancy with complete placenta previa, an emergency c-section at 32 weeks because of the heavy bleeding, and having a NICU baby (he’s doing fine now) I really resent the implication that I’m not trusting God. I’m trusting Him in waiting and in recovering from what I’ve been through.
I don’t know what all the fuss is about. Pregnancy hasn’t bothered me one bit and I just don’t understand why anyone else would put up such a fuss about it.
Actually – I suppose if I did become pregnant I could make a lot of money on the talk show circuit.
Richard,
you are too much!! LOL I needed some humor!
Gee, we told a similar scenario to session and then presbytery about the pressure our sons and (one particularly) were under from legalist Gothardite families and micromanaging elders in our former church. We left when we saw the one son was beginning to crack.
They wouldn’t listen, misquoted scripture (love your enemies, what idiot elder would say that to a ten year old and then think him to expect the church a safe place?) They wouldn’t address the problem and said nothing would change.
We were censured after leaving and told we had to come back. (A bit like going back to the boyfriend who beats you up but won’t admit it.) Nevermind, that our son was being pushed off the rails by people wanting a perfect church. We told them no court in the country would defend us if we left our children in a known abusive situation.
Presbytery never asked to talk to us, never addressed the issue pushing us out. We were told in writing that we just wanted a perfect church and we had to go back. We then were cursed, us and our children, in writing.
“The love of many shall grow cold.”
Molly,
“QF measure quantity over quality, or, more often, preaches quantity AND quality: have babies non-stop, homeschool, be a sex goddess for your hubby, mother your children, keep your house spotless, grind your own wheat and bake your own bread, practice weekly hospitality, blah blah blah…
Ack! One mere human is supposed to do all of those things and do them *all* WELL (or you’ve failed in your calling)? No small wonder so many of us crawl out of the patrio paradigm, broken and bleeding.”
You sound like me when I was talking to Karen this morning.
I have been concerned about this “quantity over quality” mindset for a long time. I find it hard to give all 10 of my children my proper attention. I can’t imagine doubling that. And I certainly am not going to hand over my little baby via a “buddy system” in order for the next sibling in line to raise while I have another one. *I* am their mother and I am not replaceable in their lives.
I know women who wouldn’t nurse or would stop nursing early so they could get pregnant as soon as possible. People questioned whether I used birth control because my babies were very far apart- 18 to 20 months! LOL
“They wouldn’t listen, misquoted scripture (love your enemies, what idiot elder would say that to a ten year old and then think him to expect the church a safe place?) They wouldn’t address the problem and said nothing would change.”
The same kind that tells a little boy who has been sexually assaulted to do the very same thing. And by “love” they meant to get together once weekly with the boy who sexually assaulted him and make bonding memories since the perp really “loved” this little boy and couldn’t stand to think he would no longer be in his life.
I find that there are very few people who are in leadership that will address the REAL problems.
The ones who will are a diamond in the rough!
Anne2,
I am very sorry your family has had to go through that. I hope that you have found a place where you can heal and grow.
Thanks, Corrie. We are in an historic peace church who preach Jesus. Never did we think we would be here. The preaching is balanced and “surprises” my still reformed but shocked hubby every Sunday. Their library is middle of the road. I went through it Sunday and was relieved to not find any Patriarch junk. DH noted there were no theology books. I replied, “there’s a Bible over there on that desk.” There is a good age mix and the people look relaxed. God, I hope this is the end of it.
I just wanted to say… thank you to everyone who shared a piece of their own personal struggles… God bless you all, and thank you for your encouragement…
things are much better for me now, and perhaps, with God’s grace and some time we can adopt in the future because I would love more kids…
Laura,
I am a huge fan of adoption, having been adopted myself.
Not long ago I heard a presentation in my church by a man from an international adoption ministry. When he talked about the numbers of orphans worldwide and the predictions of how it is going to grow, it makes all this “militant fecundity” talk look pretty silly. And where is the Biblical command in the first place? Hhhhmmm, I seem to remember something about widows and orphans……
Thanks for being so honest and sharing your story.
Exactly! I am so glad to hear someone else say this!
I had a friend start crying when I told her I had my tubes tied after the birth of my son. Hmmm…let’s see – I had been in bed since I was 20 weeks pregnant – and could hardly mother my daughters who were 4 and 6. Is this how I was supposed to spend every year of my children’s lives for the rest of my childbearing years?
The people who want to impose those beliefs on you typically have never walked in your shoes.
Laura,
THANK YOU. I could have written your post. In fact, I am going through the depression, etc, right now. With 4 young children and a husband who is away (has been gone 1.5 months already-will be 3 months total), I feel like I am on a sinking ship. Thank goodness my mom and stepdad are around to help. The people in my church are all too far away to help me out, but I have noticed that I don’t get phone calls or emails from them. I know everyone is busy with life, but still… I could use encouragement.
The pressure to have as many babies as possible is insane. I cannot believe the venom these VF/patriarchy types have spit upon women like Andrea Yates. I ache for that woman because I, like you, have felt pushed to the edge also. By God’s grace, you and I never acted on it. That is it: BY GOD’S GRACE, which VF types do not extend to any who don’t live up to their preconceived notions of what is and isn’t Christian.
I am ashamed to admit that a year or so ago, I judged women who worked outside the home, or used birth control (whatever method), or didn’t do things “just so”. I didn’t judge them to their face, but inside I had those thoughts. Well, God tells us what is in our hearts is also what matters. I am so glad that I have gotten out of that mindsuck that is patriarchy. I am beginning to be able to breathe again…
Michelle:
Love this (the term, not the effect)!
“that mindsuck that is patriarchy”
That could be a great blog post title!
To Michelle,
Dear, beloved, cherished… that is what you are to Christ, your children, your husband, your family, and your true friends. Never forget you are loved for who you are RIGHT NOW, not for the perfect homemaker you may or may not become.
Michelle, rest in God’s grace and extend that grace to yourself… just love your family and don’t fret over the house. If you have the extra $$ to spare try and hire a young girl to help you with either the house or the kids (or both) one day a week. That was my salvation! And please, don’t be afraid to seek medical evaluation and help. I didn’t need drugs, but some do, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I did, however, need lots of hours of counseling and therapy.
And remember, having some “me-time” is okay to do… it might just keep you sane to get away from the kids and go to the movies, go to the beach, go get some coffee, go read a book, go get a manicure, or (if it is your thing) go get a good beer!
We cannot forget that we exist as persons outside of our family, and even outside of our marriage. One day our kids will be grown and out of the house. Perhaps we will even outlive our husbands. What will we be then? Just and empty shell if we never took time to nourish our own soul.
God bless you Michelle!
Michelle,
I hope you have sought help for the depression. I know this was pooh poohed by the groups we were mixed up in. You will always find out who your real friends are when life gets tough or you move to a long distance dialing. When we moved to a long distance calling area all the church folk stopped calling.
I hate to say this but it seems ( and I acknowledge, there are exceptions) it is really only your family or friends you make outside the church who will pull through during the hard times. I have experienced this. It seems the higher the talk, the lower or non-existent the walk. My solution to this has been to make friends outside of church. Isn’t that a bummer? If you lived within driving distance, I’d bring over supper right now.
I went through chemo 2 years ago. One dear church lady, twice a week, sent me little cards and notes all personalized with drawings, stickers. She repeatedly wrote and said, “You will make it through,” emphasizing the word, will. She was also a cancer survivor. She was right. But it sure was nasty at the time.
Michelle,
My point of that last paragraph was that you will make it through these hard times. We just had a humongous rain blow up and I posted before proofreading and ran off to shut windows.
Anne2 wrote: I hate to say this but it seems ( and I acknowledge, there are exceptions) it is really only your family or friends you make outside the church who will pull through during the hard times. I have experienced this. It seems the higher the talk, the lower or non-existent the walk. My solution to this has been to make friends outside of church. Isn’t that a bummer? If you lived within driving distance, I’d bring over supper right now.
“Ain’t” it the truth?
My husband was in a car wreck and eventually lost his eye. We didn’t have a soul to lean on, really, within a 1500 mile drive. I called church elders from the OR waiting area to pray (attended and tithed but did not join the church because we were still weird from a really horrible church experience). He was hospitalized for 3 days, just 10 minutes from the church. We received a note card about three weeks later, though I called the pastor every week (who never once offered to pray with me). We were in another area code, and we did have some church friends nearby, but they were elderly and needed as much help as we did.
The long distance thing made a big difference and we were a bit to far out of town for most people. One of the best meals I’ve ever had was the lunch that neighbor couple bought for me on the afternoon that they drove me into town when I picked up our new car (after church on Sunday). (The car was totaled in the wreck.) We stopped at a diner and they grabbed the check before I knew where it was and bought me lunch. I was so depleted and so alone.
Years later, after we quit going to that church because they didn’t seem to care if we lived or died, I went back to ask what we’d done wrong. We were unworthy of ministry because we never officially joined, I was told. Someone said I should ask for receipts of our donations, but what would be the point? Making them angrier? They were mad that I went back and tried to reconcile.
The area code and the distance didn’t help us however.
We will have to plan a great big party in heaven (or a WWF conference)???
Hey Anne, Jennifer and Laura,
Ever thought of collecting names here for a mailing list? Even if you don’t have anything to mail out? We could have a WWF tour of some nice place or not so nice place. Toledo, OH or Cally’s California or a Great Britain WWF tour?
LOL, Cindy, I’ve been thinking this exactly. Can you imagine, “WWF Conference” hanging over say, the Joe Louis Arena? Joe Louis because WWF makes me think World Wrestling Federation and yes, I know he was a fighter not a wrestler. Sorry, it’s been a long day and I just read Lady Lydia’s reasons for not answering anyone but herself. No iron there except for the laundry room.
laracrof wrote, ” was confronted by a fellow church member and basically called an adulterer and a harlot for choosing to practice birth control”
YIKES!
Some of these types tried to find out this information from me many years ago. I looked at them long and hard and asked, “Why do you need to know this information?”
They soon became flustered … they blushed … they stuttered … they wanted to drop the issue
however, being of Celtic descent and (probably) PMS, I let them know that I was deeply offended by the question … moreover, they asked the questioned publically …
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh … it was so much fun dumping appropriate shame back on some humanistic tyrants using Christian lingo … I cannot even BEGIN to express the emotional gratification I felt (and still feel to this day!)
Thank you, ladies, for your kind words. I was getting ready to head to bed and thought I would check here one last time and am so glad I did.
I am looking very forward to some “me-time” with my best friend this Saturday. We are going shopping and out to lunch and I may even order a mixed drink (shhh!
)
The “me-time” thing is something that is also pounded into the ground by the patrio establishment… It is like it is an evil thing to ever want some time to yourself. They seem to feel that they are better Christians for NOT having any time to themselves, yet I think underneath it all, they crave it and are weary. They just won’t admit it because it would make them look bad to all their “like-minded” friends.
Oooh, I like a WWF conference. Anyone want to meet in FL?
Have a good night!
Michelle,
How wonderful that God caught your attention. I haven’t had the kiddo thing to compare with, but I have had months into years where I was just battle weary, gutting things out and not focused. And God says “Hey, whatcha doin’ there? Wake up, little one.” And I wake up and realize what slipped by me for a time. But God is compassionate like that when He needs to be, I think.
And I’ll come to Florida!
More poison from the judging idiots. Oh, I should forgive them as Christ did, because I’m SURE they don’t have a flying clue what they’re doing.
Thank you for your post, Lara, and I’m truly sorry. I heard a while ago that the VF may soon be going bankrupt, at least in the next couple of years. I’m setting my calendar..
I have watched a wonderful woman go from being an open minded, cheerful, capable woman to being judgmental, non-Christmas celebrating, legalistic and stubborn after following DP’s teachings. I’ve lost a friend.
I am so weary of the patriarchy movement. As I’ve said before, a real man doesn’t need to MAKE people follow him. People will follow smart, good people because they are smart and good.
So my take on Doug is that he is inadequate as a man because he has to remind people to follow him.
The relationship of the constitutional movements, patriarchy, homeschooling, and racism make me so sad. I am a homeschooling mom that cannot STAND being linked in ANY WAY to these people.
Oh poor Laura! If it was that bad, how’d you manage to live through ten kids?? Were they all born of you?
I’m not sure what to make of that, “were they all born of you?” I have eight kids and get that all the time.
Of course, that might be because I’m hot and they can’t believe I did that to my body, but I digress.
Just don’t follow up with, “Do they all have the same father?”
Because that is offensive and, yes, I have been asked that question by perfect strangers. More than once.
“I’m not sure what to make of that, “were they all born of you?” I have eight kids and get that all the time.”
What’s wrong with that? I’m only asking because Laura said her pregnancies were awful and I can’t imagine her going through that ten times.
I really have a hard transforming tongue in cheek commentary to the internet, don’t mind me, move along-move along.
Alrighty
Debra Baker,
“All born of you” may have been an obscure allusion to the somewhat well-known homeschooling family of ten who have a set of ten: One from her previous marriage, four from his and five of their own for a total of ten. But naturally they make it seem like they were always one big and happy brood, all blissfully patriarchal and virginal when they first married.
Hint, hint– it’s the person who coined the phrase that gave this blog it’s name.
Actually, quite frankly, the commentary is more interesting messages themselves. (Not to insult the author, of course:))
Laura Croft, thank you for sharing this. As an insulin-dependent woman who had “only” 4 pregnancies, all of them high-risk, with one of the children dying at the age of 2 years old from serious heart complications, I thank you for putting our wombs in the right perspective.
I found myself with my living children and husband in a congregation full of “visionary” families, FQ and our own local brand of homeschool holiness, and realized that the reason my family didn’t quite fit in was my incredible naivete about my freedom in Christ! I actually thought it didn’t matter that a part of my body (uterus) didn’t function the same as the other women who were married to successful “leaders” in the church. The message is subtle. I heard open praise for women who were having more babies (I love babies, and I hold a special place in my heart for pregnant mommies and babies) but little encouragement to the women who were struggling in rocky marriages (yes, I knew of at least a few who weren’t all that they seemed; one woman telling me in tears her marital estate and her husband continues to hold a leadership position). Others saw how he treated her, too.
The FQ, dominion, Do Hard Things (but not stand up to a man’s wrong teaching if you’re a woman) aspect in the “pick and choose” method of studying the Bible at the church made my brain hurt. It also hurt my sense of identity in Christ.
You see, as I came to the passage in Ephesians (as well aas the whole of Scripture) that showed me that my only identity and worth and value is because of who I am in Christ; a living stone, built up in His Temple/Body, not by man’s hands and instruments, but by God Himself — I was set free from man’s traditions. As I stayed to listen to the patriarchal teachings based in position in this world, it was hard for me to hear how much worth was on my physical body to produce children, or other narrow definitions of female roles in those women’s circles.
Some women in those circles go to great lengths to increase their fertility, by using nutritional supplements, reversals of vasectomies, etc., and that’s between them and God and their spouses. But it’s being preached, taught, encouraged among the women online and in study groups. However, when another woman I knew from those circles wanted to advertise in the church bulletin that she was leading a Bible study, the elders didn’t approve because it wasn’t from the right publisher or one that they regularly used. She could hold her Bible study, but they wouldn’t endorse or advertise it to the congregation. Yowza! And she actully was a FQ woman.
I just needed to share. I’m struggling with these past issues of judgementalism, on others toward me and now mine toward their myopic-ness.
I’ll miss Laura’s posts, but I know she’ll be out there fighting the good fight somewhere.
Kathleen,
I’m very sorry to hear of your loss. I have no words to offer anyone who has lost a child… not having lost my own child, I cannot imagine the pain… I am truly sorry.
I am glad that my posts here have been helpful to you in some way.
God bless you and yours,
-Laura
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