I just had to post this because, well, I think its cool. Although I’m not sure TG would consider herself a White Washed Feminist, I kinda think she fits the mould. Anyway, apparently her website was mentioned in this summer’s “No Greater Joy” magazine as being “anti-Pearl.” Yippee! Yay for you!
In their article, the Pearls use words like “uninformed”, “anti-family”, “emotionally immature,” and “Intellectually depraved,” to describe their critics. Seriously? I’m not uninformed about Michael Pearl’s encouragement of parents to use PVC pipe on their children. I’m not uninformed about their nearly Pelagian views of man. I’m not uninformed about Michael Pearl’s advice to continue on in a marriage to a man who has molested your children. I’m not uninformed about the Pearls constant comparisons of the training of children to the training of animals. (I’ll be providing links to all of these “charges” later in the day when my kids nap).
I posted on TW that I would consider it an absolute honor to be considered dangerous by Michael and Debi Pearl because i write against their brand of spanking. Their parenting advice on “discipline” is abusive trash and their theology is heretical. So, hooray for TulipGirl, a true champion of real Biblical parenting.
Rah, Rah, TG!!!
Go, TulipGirl!
woot woot! But I hope that they do not read TG and see Tulip- I pray they read without fetters or blinders and their eyes are opened.
My question to that magazine is, “Is there supposed to be a down side to being anti-Pearl?”
Go, TG.
My first thought is, “who died and made Micheal Pearl the expert on parenting?”
Second thought is: YOU GO TULIP GIRL
You have GOT to be kidding! They have a magazine?
Tulip Girl I have no idea who you are … but … as my younger child would say, “You ROCK!”
I am standing up and cheering over here, too!
Badge of honor, baby! Wear it proud!
You guys need to tag this one as “Offend Them Boldy.”
“You Guys” in the Eastern Pennsylvania sense as applied to everybody who has access to create a new tag — the PA equivalent of “y’all.” Not to infer that the WWFs are unfeminine in the least!!!
Thought I’d clarify because you never know what small minded patriarch will use this as fodder to prove we all want to be men. I resent when I have to do the manly work, like I resent the fact that there are not more male minsters weighing in on this issue. I’ve had ministries admit to me that they side with us but (as I’ve been told in my own denouncement) they can’t risk losing financial support or business from their primary demographic. Offering criticism of another powerful ministry and denomination from which they derive financial and logistical support would put them out of business, and the group I offended used heavy political pressure and threats to do all they could to wipe me off the landscape.
People find this offensive, but they are too pragmatic and dependent upon the system to pay the price. The big fish will risk swallowing up little fish like Tulip Girl, but they won’t ban together to make a statement about the sharks.
Bravo, Tulipgirl. I am so proud. You put questions in my head when I went down the Pearl Path. And I pray that your questions continue to penetrate the minds of sincerely seeking mothers trying to do their best and encourage them to find something better than the Pearl’s brand of parenting.
TulipGirl, I sure hope you are reading this! You are actually the one who inspired me to read, study, pray, and trust my instincts to turn away from the Ezzos, Pearls et al (what? I can be Reformed, homeschool, AND practice attachment parenting? No way!) You have certainly influenced my life greatly, and it is awesome that you are now “dangerous.”
Way to go, TG!
Do they really recommend using PVC pipe for corporal discipline? Why are they not incarcerated?
Richard, I have no idea… IMHO, folks who follow their teachings to the letter are guilty of abuse, plain and simple.
This is great! So TulipGirl has upset the applecart. I was thoroughly disgusted when I read Pearl’s book. I seem to recall a part where the father purposely and repeatedly tripped one of the little children to teach them not to do something again. It was all behaviour modification and nasty tricks. Dirty.
Cindy: “I resent the fact that there are not more male minsters weighing in on this issue.”
Are bloggers the only ones speaking out? Who else has weighed in on this issue?
Have any of you read the Pearl’s book on marriage? Yikes! And I only read a part of it.
This is my first visit to your blog. I am thankful you’re speaking out about the Pearls and their misguided discipline ideas. May God guide your efforts. I earnestly pray that these ideas will be discarded wherever they have taken hold.
I have to add a little to the TG love: She’s a woman of great heart and courage whose efforts encourage Christians toward thoughtful, mature engagement with these issues. Never shrill, never taking the cheap shot–she’s always a class act in the blogging world. I am thankful for her influence.
Woot!! Go, TG!
Thank you for the encouragement! Actually, I didn’t know about the NGJ nod until I read it here. . . And then I got PMs from a few friends.
A few “the Pearls saves my family/marriage/faith/life” posts have come my way, as well. And that makes me sad. Why is it so easy to give glory to the teachings of men, instead of the God and the grace He has bestowed on us to love and serve one another? Promote a book, instead of the healing He brings through the Gospel?
Ah, TG, you have hit on a very key issue, I think… that of following men instead of God.
I was wondering if you could put the statement where they state you should stay with your husband if he is molesting your children. I have been reading their books for years and never read anything like that. Their book Created to be His Helpmeet has completely transformed my marriage in the best possible way. I had read the Bible cover to cover a few times but its funny how when I got to certain verses such as, ” Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.: Eph. 5:22 my eyes would gloss over them, lol!
Thank you in advance for your help!
Kris, read my post The Pearl’s Are Wrong
I provide both quotes and links to their own website where you can read the advice in context.
I’m glad that your marriage is better, but the good advice offered by the Pearls is expressed better by others elsewhere and without their highly destructive teachings.
I would also like to encourage you, Kris, to listen to Thatmom’s podcasts where she interviews Spunky Homeschool mom, Karen Braun, about CTBHH. They are AMAZING and very comprehensive!!
http://www.thatmompodcast.com
See the October 5th and October 12th 2007 broadcasts.
Katherine,
Good one! I can’t think of a downside at all to be anti-Pearl!
Tulip Girl, thanks for taking one for the team.
Also, I have not read their book on marriage but that is because the CTBHHM was almost more than I could tolerate.
Could you fill us in on the “highlights”?
Or would that be the low lights which really is a double entendre in this case.
Thank you for your response and I did read your previous writing. In your example of a woman giving her husband a chance who molested her children, he states clearly that if there is even a thought the children are not safe “or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested.” He doesn’t state to take them back right away, quite the opposite, he says they should do 10-20 years and by then the children will be grown. That sounds like more time then a prosecuter in today’s age would seek! You ask what message that sends your children, I think it sends the message Christ gave us, we are all sinners and we should all forgive a truly repentant heart, as we have been forgiven.
I also looked in the CTBHHM, Chapter 22 for questions and answers. In that chapter I read a question from a woman who states her husband is taking their 13 year old son out to men to be abused by other men, the Pearls respond biblically by telling the woman “to call the law, so that they could set up a time to catch the sodomites at the rest stop, including her husband. She did, her husband is in the slammer for a number of years, and the kids are growing up without a pervert for a daddy. Sometimes, it is a grave sin NOT to stand against your husband.”
That issue seems clear to me on how they feel about child molesters.
I guess my point that I am trying to make is that after reading almost ALL of their books and even though I am not the brightest bulb in the room, I have garnered some very helpful information. I do not believe Michael Pearl would stand by a child beater or child molester, quite the opposite, he would call them as he sees it, a pervert and bully. Do I subscribe to all of their ideas, no, but I have not walked away from his writings thinking its OK to beat my children and for my husband to abuse his power.
I guess, it just shows how different we all can be! Many women have read their books and felt as you feel and many feel as I do, maybe we can find some common ground and encourage eachother despite our misgivings.
I would suggest that we all love our children and wish them to be followers of Christ. That might be a good starting point rather then speaking about someones thoughts and views without speaking with them directly and giving them a chance to clarify what might be being assumed wrongly.
Thank you for your time and consideration, I certainly appreciate the obvious devotion you have to being careful on the information on raising and loving your family.
Kris, I think you’re missing the point. The way the Pearl’s write that implies that the pedophile can stay in the home if you don’t think he’s going to keep hurting the kids.
Do you have any experience with this? Because I do. I’m a sexual abuse survivor and over the years have done a great deal of research on this topic. Here are the problems with the Pearl’s advice:
1. Pedophiles will do everything in their power to convince the mother that he won’t keep doing it, that he’s safe, that it was a one-time-thing, that he loves her, etc. In other words they will always, when confronted seem “repentant and willing to seek help” And when women are in these situations it can be easier to believe him than to face a life without him as a single parent.
2. Even if the mother does have him arrested, we don’t get to decide how long a pedophile goes to jail for. Many many child abusers don’t spend long in jail at all. And the Pearl’s want you to bring this man back into the home when he’s done. There is no guarantee that the children will be safe by then. And what about grand-children? Neighbor kids? Kids at church? Pedophiles work with what’s available, and if you have one in your home the only way to be sure your kids are safe is to have them OUT. But the Pearl’s don’t recommend that. The Pearls make it sound like it may be okay to keep them at home, which can be very dangerous advice to a mother looking for a reason to allow him to stay.
3. It is incredibly emotionally damaging for a child of incest to have to remain in the home with the abuser, and the Pearl’s give advice that allows that to happen, so long as he seems “repentant” which is standard for these men.
It’s flat out dangerous advice, as is their advice to women to only seek help if their husband hits them hard enough to leave a mark lasting more than 2 hours. Essentially, they give paramaters for spousal abuse. We can not encourage people to follow this kind of teaching!
There are plenty of people out there offering great parenting advice without the harmful information that the Pearl’s are teaching.
I understand that you like the good information you’ve gotten from them, and I can appreciate that. But as I like to say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
As for speaking out against their teachings publically without going to them privately, I simply don’t think that’s an appropriate response here. These are public teachings, printed and distributed globally. They should be adressed publicly. Especially from someone who is teaching danger on top of heresy.
I don’t know the Pearl’s and I’m sure they have the best of motives and a desire to help families. But I believe with all my heart that this information is dangerous and I must speak out.
Hi Anne,
Thank you for your thoughts. You made my point for me, I understood the Pearl’s writing completely different then you and others obviously. To me, when Mr Pearl states ” they should do 10-20 years and by then the children will be grown” I take that to mean he does not think the pervert should be in the home with the children.
One of my closest friends is an attorney who has dealt with sexually abused children for the last twenty years. Whenever I have mentioned the mother and whether she knew or not, she states that they ALWAYS know. They may not have seen something overt but they know. I agree with her since I have had my own personal experiences with this kind of thing. Having said that, if a man is sexually abusing his children, his wife will listen to his lies no matter what the Pearl’s tell her.
Believe me, I whole heartedly understand the fear for the children’s well being and if I thought for a moment the Pearls’ meant a pervert should be forgiven and around children, I would completely agree with you, I just don’t find his writings to lead me to that conclusion.
There is a simple way to find some peace and finality with the Pearls and their ideas, the Biblical way. You state that to go to them privately first before publically is not appropriate but doesn’t God state otherwise when dealing with our brothers and sisters in Christ?
Moreover if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone: if he shall hear you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear you, then take with you one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be to you as an heathen man and a publican. Matt 18: 15-17
Again, I thank you for your thoughts and taking the time to explain to me how you view this situation.
Dear Kris:
While you may take it that the Pearl’s don’t think a pedophile should stay in the house, they flatly state:
So, if you’re husband says sorry, and that he wants to make it right, you are not to go to the authorities. That’s what they teach. And you’ve completely ignored the other issues, grandkids, neighbors, kids at church, and all the other kids that the pedophile would be exposed to, even if they did do 10-20 before coming home. Which is the ultimate goal of the Pearls.
You also didn’t address the issues of spousal abuse. What do you think of that?
Now to the other issue you brought up, respectfully, I don’t believe that Matthew 18 applies to this at all. They haven’t trespassed against me. Nor do I see this as a sin issue that needs to be addressed. Even if I did, I don’t know them to approach them personally. This is an issue with public teaching which I believe is wrong, and I see nothing wrong with publicly questioning them
“or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help”
So what if he was, Kris? He’s still a child molester and needs to do prison time whether he’s sorry or not!
“You ask what message that sends your children, I think it sends the message Christ gave us, we are all sinners and we should all forgive a truly repentant heart, as we have been forgiven.”
UGH! You can’t put something like that on children. All they know is that they’re being forced to see the man who hurt them and that he’s being treated as more important than they are. Some abuse victims can never forgive their abusers and I do not think God would condemn them for this. Ugh, this sounds almost like what that awful woman did to Anne concerning the baby issue.
That’s the weird thing about the Pearls: they despise child-molesters and encourage everyone else to hate them too..except the women who married them.
Hi Anne,
I guess we just have to agree to disagree, I don’t feel I’ve ignored the other issues. You believe there is no true repentance so no forgiveness is to be given. That to me is sad to hear from a Christian, I believe people can be repentant and forgiveness can be granted otherwise there is no hope for any of us.
You state you don’t believe that Matt 18 applies here but I can tell you from an outsider reading these blogs, there doesn’t seem to be any love or respect towards the Pearls who you state you believe to have the best of motives and desire to help families and they are our Christian’s brother and sisters.
I’m sorry I did not respond in regards to “spousal abuse”, if I felt we might be able to reach some common ground I would take the time to do so but it seems we are both seeing the Pearl’s in a different light which is certainly understandable and happens. I’m sure when I plead busy being mom as my excuse you will understand and hopefully forgive me, being a busy mom of five yourself!:)
I wish you to be blessed and I very much appreciated all that you have shared with me.
Woah, Kris, that is NOT what Anne said at all. You’ve twisted her words to mean something she does not. Child molesters are dangerous and should be kept from children forever, even after repentance. Period. That doesn’t mean you don’t forgive them. That means you work to keep your children safe and keep other people’s children safe. The fact that you can just gloss over the blatant FACTS about the recitivism rate of child molesters is truly troublesome to me.
The Pearls have publicly criticized the teachings of others. Does Matthew 18 apply to them in those cases? Please hold them to the same standards you hold us.
Thatmom wrote a GREAT post on why Matthew 18 does not apply in these cases. Here’s a link to that:
http://thatmom.wordpress.com/2007/11/24/slander-libel-and-gossip-oh-my-understanding-the-difference-between-matthew-1815-and-galatians-2/
“Child molesters are dangerous and should be kept from children forever, even after repentance. Period. That doesn’t mean you don’t forgive them. That means you work to keep your children safe and keep other people’s children safe”
Cally’s right, Kris, and here’s something else: even the Pearls say this! Michael Pearl says that he’s forgiven plenty of molesters but he will NEVER let them near children no matter how repentant they are. It appears that you’re even less aware of how these monsters’ minds work than the Pearls are.
Dear Kris, I want to address your post piece by piece, so please bear with me.
I really don’t see where you’ve addressed the issue of domestic abuse, but if you can point it out to me, or explain again, I’d appreciate it. And I’ll ask again, do you or do you not agree with Michael Pearl’s advice that women not seek help with a violent spouse unless they hit them hard enough to leave a mark lasting longer than 2 hours, and do you think this is good advice?
Also, I think you’ve misunderstood me somewhere. I am not talking about forgiveness, which I think is a valuable thing. I have forgiven the men who molested me, and I hope that God would give me the strength to forgive someone who did that to my children. But forgiveness and repentance does not mean that I should keep the man in my house.
Children are too great a risk to take to keep them in the home in the hopes that he really means it and won’t do it again. Forgive, yes, but first and foremost one must protect their children. And the Pearl’s should be stating that unequivocally.
I’m sorry, but you’ll have to explain to me how I can apply Matthew 18 to this situation. It is the teachings of the Pearl’s that I take issue with. I have said nothing unkind about the Pearl’s whom I don’t know and have no personal knowledge of. I can tell you that I have no respect for their teachings, nor any love for them. But that does not translate to what I think and believe of the Pearl’s.
Tell me, have you asked Micheal and Debi Pearl why they didn’t use Matthew 18 when dealing with TulipGirl? They didn’t go to her privately and discuss their issue with her posting against their teachings. Or does Matthew 18 only apply to those who disagree with them?
Yes, I believe that Michael and Debi Pearl have the best of intentions. But I still believe that their teachings are wrong, dangerous, heretical, and that I have a duty to speak out against them and hopefully help other people avoid them.
I wish the Pearl’s nothing but peace, and if they decide tomorrow to withdraw their teaching from the public sphere and recant their heresy and the dangerous teachings regarding spousal abuse and pedophilia, I will give thanks to God and not speak of it again.
Regardless, I do anticipate that one day I will see them both on the other side of the veil and be grateful that the trials and tribulations of earth are behind us and that we can join together as believers in the praise and worship of the King.
Peace to you, and thank you for continuing to discuss this.
Matthew 18 is a local church passage. It is not intended for the extended community and really cannot apply to this situation. How exactly would excommunication work when you are dealing with people from multiple denominations and myriad churches?
When a person speaks in a public forum, that person may be answered in the public sphere. This should serve as a deterrent to those who want to pontificate in public. Public proclamations will be answered publicly, not privately.
The Matthew 18 red herring has been used as an excuse to try to remove debate from public forums so that these folks may continue to make their outrageous statements without being held accountable. I have personal experience with one of the leaders of the Patriarchy in this regard. They know full well that they can’t hold their own in a debate because they know full well that their beliefs cannot be defended with scripture. As soon as someone begins using scripture to show that they are wrong, they attempt to shut it down by misapplication of Matthew 18.
Sorry, but when you have made your unscriptural statements publicly, they will be refuted publicly. That’s just the way it is and there is no biblical reason for it to not be done that way.
And there is a biblical example for this in Galatians 2 with Paul confronting Peter publicly.
I apologize for taking so long to write back, my motherly and wifely duties have been abundant this week. How do you with so many children do it? I give you all so much credit for being so much wiser with your time then I am, lol!
Jennifer, thank you so much for letting us know that Mr Pearl says in his writing that no matter how repentant a child molestor is he would never allow them near children. That certainly clears up how he feels about a mother allowing her husband near her child whether he is repentant or not.
Amazingly, I read on this blog (can’t remember where it was, sorry) about a woman who hit her child over 30 times in one day based on the Pearls advice!! She then had to lock them in their room for fear of hurting them more. She blames the Pearl’s bad advice for the beating her children incurred that day. That woman is to blame. If someone is going to beat on their children all day and say its because they read to do it in a child rearing book, they have more issues then I would want to get into here. I think the Pearls biggest mistake was not putting a clause in their books saying, these books are intended to be used by someone with a brain.
To me if you want to find something to slam someone with and they write thousands and thousands of words, you will have no problem doing it. I think when someone speaks that much they are going to at times say things the wrong way or just ruffle some feathers because they are taking one position over another.
The fact that so many people felt they needed to state it was not Biblical to go and speak to Mr Pearl for clarification says alot to me. I was asked if I told Mr Pearl to do the same thing, I don’t think you can compare anonymous bloggers with a public figure who has his address and full information on display for everyone to see.
However, it seems that as far as this blog goes, no one is going to try and talk with the Pearls about it and would rather talk about them. I got that loud and clear, I won’t ask again.:)
I hope we all enjoy this wonderful summer day with our family!
Kris wrote: “I think the Pearls biggest mistake was not putting a clause in their books saying, these books are intended to be used by someone with a brain.”
Kris, as comical as your statement is, it just simply cannot wash. The reason why is a book is available to a variety of individuals with a variety of IQs. There are many people out there that are pretty literal.
Some that comes along and says they are a “Christian” expert (albeit self-proclaimed or not), some very concrete thinking individuals will follow the recommendations given in a book just like a receipe one follows to make a cake.
So, to demean those Christians that may not have your intellectual ability Kris, is unkind and unfair. They did not have the choice to determine what their IQ would be and part of our duties as Christians is to protect the weak and the helpless.
The women here and in the blogroll (on the right hand side of the page) need to be commended for their valiant efforts of undoing the damage that has been done by such thoughtless books by self-proclaimed experts.
uh … that one sentence should have read …
“Someone that comes along and says they are a “Christian” expert (albeit self-proclaimed or not) …”
duh
I think this is unfair. It’s not about being unwilling to tell the Pearl’s what our issues are. It’s about you misapplying Matthew 18, which is a verse dealing with the local church.
As I pointed out, Michael Pearl hasn’t sinned against me. If he is unwilling to listen, I couldn’t take a witness, or go to his elders. I don’t even know that he has elders.
In addition, I provided a scriptural basis for discussing public teaching publicly as demonstrated by the Apostle Paul. And it is the Pearl’s teachings that are being talked about here, not them. None of us know them. Nothing has been said about their personality or character, but instead, what they teach.
In addition, plenty of people with brains have had trouble using the Pearl’s methods, myself included.
‘Kris, as comical as your statement is, it just simply cannot wash. The reason why is a book is available to a variety of individuals with a variety of IQs. There are many people out there that are pretty literal”
According to you, I am in the wrong because I expect mothers to have the intelligence to realize that they shouldn’t beat their child 30 times in a day, if it wasn’t so sad that would be the comical statement.
The fact that you defend a woman who beat her children 30 times in one day as being less intelligent so its not her fault is simply difficult for me to comprehend. I think you are reaching here in your desire to defend this woman and demonize the Pearls. If you read this woman’s writing on this blog then I highly doubt you would proclaim her as so stupid she didn’t know that beating her children and locking them in their room to protect them from herself was simply not her fault but the Pearl’s writing. This kind of thinking is scary and counterproductive.
Anne, you don’t need to defend yourself anymore about contacting the Pearls’, I got that message loud and clear from the four or five people who wrote to defend that position and as I stated in my previous post I will not expect you to be doing that. As far as what is Biblical and not Biblical, I will leave that up to the readers of your blog since I am far from any sort of expert and have certainly been wrong before.
I can tell you that I have written authors before when I had questions about something they wrote and have never encountered an author who wasn’t grateful for the chance to clarify something they may have written or a chance to defend something they believe in, I thought the Pearls being a part of our Christian family (whether famous or infamous) it might be nice to give them the same opportunity, thats all I am trying to say.
Kris, for what it’s worth, I might have considered doing that if I didn’t already know people who had and were totally blown off by the Pearl’s. They know what the issues are that people have with their teachings, but they believe that they’re right and I believe that they are wrong. *shrug*
Kris, I just gave my 18 year old & almost 21 year old a Cliff Note’s version of what you presented (i.e., “… these books are intended to be used by someone with a brain.”).
They recognized that this was intended to be funny, but they also found it to be a very sad statement indeed. My 18 & 21 year old offspring immediately began to give examples of how folks use various media (books, movies, magazines, etc.) to teach and how many begin to imitate what was presented in that media whether or not they use “common sense” (or have the ability to use “common sense”). For many, it is a reflex reaction.
As a result of Star Wars, for example, folks in various places throughout the globe are referring to themselves as Jedi Warriors.
Most know about Star Trek conventions.
I will never forget that right after the movie Jaws came out, there were reports from all across the USA of kindergarteners biting one another.
This is why many libraries have a section in it that the average patron is not allowed to enter due to the sensitive nature of the books contained there (torture, abuse, etc.)
In fact, the written word is so powerful that there are several groups out there that pass out the Bible (e.g., Gideons). There is a REASON why stained glass windows were used in the middle ages … it is BECAUSE they teach.
Homeschoolers, private schoolers, charter schoolers, government schoolers, universities, seminar/workshop instructors use books, movies, slides, and all manner of things to teach.
So your statement on brains?
hmmmmmmmmmmm … Christians (just like the rest of the population) mature and grow at various levels. Some Christians may have IQs of 40 or lower. Just because someone may be immature or have a low IQ does not mean we should demean, mock, belittle, diminish, or ridicule that person.
What it DOES mean is that the outreach ministry the women are performing at this site and others is necessary, valued, and VERY important.
It also means that these self-proclaimed experts need to be held to a higher standard by the very virtue of them promoting a particular ideology and theory and claiming it is Christian.
Needless to say, a great deal of damage can be done with the printed word (e.g., Hitler’s Mein Kampf, etc.).
Exactly … what the Pearls promote and “This kind of thinking is scary and counterproductive.”
We need to help those that take those teachings and “beat their child 30 times in a day”.
Moreover, these self-proclaimed experts need to recognize how powerful the written word is and NOT make such irresponsible statements for others to follow.
Thoughts have consequences. We act on what we think. Many have acted on what these self-proclaimed “experts” recommend and have been brutally damaged.
Maybe I’m just dense, but I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where it says that you should whip/beat/spank/hit your kid with a piece of plumbing equipment ?
It’s been a long time since I even picked up NGJ materials, but didn’t they advocate using plumbing line to spank with?
Thank you Anne for your post, I appreciate what you have said and maybe the people who have said they were blown off by the Pearls were, maybe they weren’t, the only way to know for sure is to try yourself but believe me I got that that is not going to happen.
To the person who just posted without a name, your children sound like very thoughtful people. I appreciate their thoughts, I would like to share with them and you, that we are all individuals and we are all ultimately responsible for the choices we make. There are always some who will do evil like those who believed the writings of Hitler however those who say they are God’s children have a book that precedes all human writing, its called the Bible and it comes before any “self-proclaimed” expert.
The example from the woman who beat her child 30 times is still not warranted here because the Pearls never literally (that is what you said, right, literal readers?) told anyone to beat their child 30 times. I am sure myself or Jennifer could find writings from the Pearls that counter that belief easily if I had the time. So how can you defend that? They also stated child molesters should never be around children EVER but up until Jennifer’s post, they received no credit from this blog on that statement at least as far as I could find.
The Pearl’s teach that if you follow their methods you will receive 100% obedience.
I’ll tell you a story:
I was trying to put my 2 year old daughter down for a nap. But she didn’t want to stay. I had read in TTUAC about 100% consistency, not showing mercy, switching until I obtained obedience, and never backing down. I switched her repeatedly because that’s what the Pearl’s said had to be done to make her submit.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that people who follow the Pearl’s as written aren’t too bright. Perhaps if the book says that you must switch repeatedly to train your children to obey, and that if you don’t do what they say you won’t raise godly children, then the problem is with the materials.
Kris wrote: “There are always some who will do evil like those who believed the writings of Hitler”
Exactly! and how did he spread this evil? By the written word. Again, thoughts have consequences. We act on what we think.
Anne has given you an example of “read in TTUAC about 100% consistency, not showing mercy, switching until I obtained obedience, and never backing down.” So, it is really a stretch that a parent may “beat their child 30 times in a day” after reading their materials? Do the authors not have culpability? Did Hitler not have culpability for what he wrote?
I agree that many of these self-proclaimed experts’ methodology and thoughts are very scary. Rather than peddling highly suspect ideology, they may want to revamp their materials using the constructive criticism so kindly offered to them.
You say, “I can tell you that I have written authors before when I had questions about something they wrote and have never encountered an author who wasn’t grateful for the chance to clarify something they may have written or a chance to defend something they believe in …”
This has been done … nothing, apparently, has changed … yet Christian children/babies must be protected from the irresponsible advice these self-proclaimed experts so freely give out.
If the Pearls have written something that contradicts material they have posted elsewhere, they should remove the contradictory material or post a retraction. In one article, Michael Pearl says to allow the child molester back into the home. Apparently, in another article, he says that child molesters should never be around children. So which is it? Color me confused…
Cally wrote: “If the Pearls have written something that contradicts material they have posted elsewhere, they should remove the contradictory material or post a retraction.”
well put …
also, another thing to remember about the brain statement (“… these books are intended to be used by someone with a brain”) is that the population in Germany as the Nazi’s gained power and came to power was that it was one of the MOST EDUCATED countries in the world. Moreover, many historians consider that the population was highly Christian as well.
so … brains have nothing whatsoever to do with following what someone writes in a book ….
… it has more to do with authoritative status claims of being a “Christian expert”
There’s so much and since I am on my own in responding to all of you, its hard for me to respond to everything written so I will do my best but please forgive me if I don’t touch on every single thing.
Anne, I understand what you are saying, you tried the method the Pearl’s suggested and it didn’t work for you. I totally understand that, I have one child that just a look and she is behaving, I have another that needs a swat or a firmer form of discipline at times. I am not surprised that you found the Pearl’s method didn’t work for you. Being a loving and thoughtful mother, you stopped their method and looked for alternatives. Great, hopefully you found something else. However, the other methods you found, might not work for me whereas much of the what the Pearls have laid out does work for me. I guess I am hoping people use common sense, you certainly don’t have to be a highly intelligent person to realize that hitting your child 30 times is wrong. There are thousands of child rearing books out there and I doubt you would find even one book that works perfectly for you.
Perhaps my feelings of defense for the Pearls is because there is no other voice here at least these last couple of days and being someone who has found so much of what they have written to be of tremendous benefit I want to show another side. Is it necessary to throw the baby out with the bath water?
In summary, all of you that have written to me except perhaps Jennifer agree that Mr Pearl has not made it clear that he doesn’t want you to beat your child senseless or to be molested by the husband you let come near them. Even though, he stated quite clearly they are never to be left with children again ever! I see that is only my feeling and that I am not going to convince any of you. Thats fine, if you get no benefit from the Pearls, fine. I just thought there might be others like me who would benefit from their materials, as it is they have helped hundreds if not thousands with their advice. Many people that it might have helped will never read their material and the tons of good stuff they have written because of blogs like this that they stumble on, I am sure that pleases you and that is the goal. I just disagree.
Can we still be brothers and sisters in the Lord? I hope so:))
God Bless all of you and thank you for your thoughts.
“Is it necessary to throw the baby out with the bath water?”
I’ve thought a lot about this where the Pearls are concerned because so many people have benefited from their teachings. Perhaps they can be read and gleaned from. I’m inclined to say that what they say that is bad is so bad (and theologically errant, at best) that we should throw it out all together because what they say that is good has been said elsewhere and in a much clearer way. They operate from a heretical foundation and their parenting advice stems from that foundation. I’m researching a blog post to demonstrate this point, so stay tuned
“Can we still be brothers and sisters in the Lord? I hope so:))”
Kris, of course
((HUGS))
“what they say that is good has been said elsewhere and in a much clearer way”
Well, not always. The Pearls do have unique articles that I enjoy looking at and interesting ways of doing and saying things. I decided to take the good from them.
I’ve been reconsidering what they said about welcoming an un-repentant pedophile back in the house once the kids are gone. No matter what, it’s abhorrent, but here’s the thing: I wonder if they were thinking of a man who wasn’t sorry for what he did, but ALSO who wouldn’t do it again. There’s a difference between someone who’s not repentant and someone who will committ a crime again.
Now please ladies, understand what I’m saying. I KNOW there’s rarely a pedophile who won’t act again. I KNOW the chances of finding one who’s not sorry AND won’t act again are..well, impossible. All I’m saying is that I think the Pearls’ MEANING was different than I thought it was. Is there such a thing as a pedo who’s not sorry but won’t act again? Nope. But, as we’ve learned, the Pearls are ignorant of such people’s minds.
Kris, I could totally get behind the idea that we parent different ways. But the Pearl’s don’t. They teach that their way is the best way for all children, and that it’s God’s way.
The teach an impossible standard (100% consistency and 100% obedience), teach things that are not scriptural (B.F. Skinner operative conditioning as “biblical training”, children whose guilt is removed with the use of the rod, etc.), and then on top of that offer the advice to those in dangerous situations that will keep them in those dangerous situations.
When those things are put together, and sold as “God’s way” and all who object are being “deceived” by the devil and are trying to destroy families, then I have to speak out. I believe that I stand in defense of the Gospel and of Christian liberty, things I believe in fiercely, and will always speak up to defend.
Though, in fairness, even if the Pearl’s did teach that there were other valid ways to parent (which they don’t) I would still have to speak out against what I believe to be the grievous errors in their teaching.
Jennifer, I agree with you. I think the Pearl’s offer their advice with the belief that the repentant pedophile will keep his hands to himself. Just as they believe (according to their words) the husband hitting his wife will also keep his hands to himself after being confronted by the police.
The problem with that is that it’s not what actually happens. Men who hit their wives don’t suddenly gain control after seeing the police any more than the pedophile stops molesting after repenting.
Which is why the advice is so dangerous.
Oh good, I’m so glad you agree with my interpretation of what they meant, Anne! You’re right of course, that’s not what happens with abusers (especially unrepentant ones) at all, tragically, but it just makes me feel a little better about the Pearls themselves. Their heads aren’t in the right place, but their hearts?..Usually
I make no judgments about the Pearl’s hearts, and I don’t for one minute, think that they are trying to give dangerous advice. But the truth of it is that, whatever their motives, it is dangerous advice and we should make that clear lest someone be injured by it.
And let us not forget that the PEARLS are making a living off this. Is it not a family business that employs most of the family? They are living off the profits from their materials.
They are making money off their books and materials, so no doubt they’re eager to protect their reputation.
I have no idea how much money they make, and they are cetainly entitled to whatever it is they do make. I’m all for free market economies.
But we need to remember that even amongst Christians, when there is a product being SOLD, there is the profit factor to pay attention to.
The bottom line is ALWAYS the bottom line. They want to sell a product.
Anne wrote: “I think the Pearl’s offer their advice with the belief that the repentant pedophile will keep his hands to himself.”
that’s part of the problem with self-proclaimed experts in fields they have no experience or real expertise in the area they give advice in … they offer dangerous advice … I have worked with pedophiles for many years … they are very, very, very dangerous
the only analogy I can think of is someone that has watched fireworks as a spectator and has used sparklers in the backyard … then, they come along and want to do a grand pyrotechnic spectacle and, through their lack of experience and ability, blow up the crowd that has come to watch the display
I realized I forgot to give the rest of the analogy!
duh …
these self-proclaimed parenting experts is like someone that has watched fireworks as a spectator and has used sparklers in the backyard … then, they decided they want to do a grand pyrotechnic spectacle on their own property … they refuse to listen to the advice and recommendations of others … and, through their lack of experience and ability, blow up the crowd that has come to watch the display
there is no way to discern the inexperienced, self-proclaimed pyrotechnic’s motivation (other than they wanted to set off fireworks and have others pay them to watch the fireworks)
… but we do know the end result of their work … they blew up the crowd that came to watch the display and this IS evil
… this self-proclaimed pyrotechnic expert needs to be held accountable because he/she refused to listen to the recommendations of others (arrogance? pride?) and went ahead with their decision to have a grand pyrotechnic display and caused terrible damage
Excellent analogy, One Who Has.
Michael and Debi Pearl seek to influence people.
As well-intentioned as they may be, they need to be aware of the profound negative impact their influence has had in many people’s lives. They get the positive feedback and take it to heart — and they need to give credence to the negative feedback and take that to heart as well, instead of dismissing it.
Because they are blowing up mothers and families with their mishandling of the Bible, even if for other families their teachings are putting on a good pyrotechnic show.
Thank you TulipGirl.
I know that when I was growing up, my parents and grandparents would often talk about various self-proclaimed experts like we have been discussing here and use them as examples for the old saying … “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
I know I’m really late to this but, YAY!! Tulipgirl!!
*shaking my virtual pom-poms!