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I don’t know how I missed it, but today I noticed an incoming link from another blog to a wordpress blog post I had written. The post was written by a Catholic blogger who spoke out quite forcefully about why we were wrong to induce labor with Sarah. I was shocked that she was still writing about our decision, and more shocked that it seemed to be in an effort to be right, even though she isn’t.
Her blog post was in response to an old post of mine on my faith blog that talked about my struggle with the Catholic faith. In it I wrote:
And where homosexuality is concerned, I accept the Authority of the Church and will not be a homosexual. Funny, but it’s taken me three years to come to the place where I can deal with my bigger issue of rebellion and church Authority. And it’s not in the area that this person and I were discussing. It’s actually with regards to Sarah. My induction for a child incompatible with life is something that this person has been supportive of me on. Funny, she never questioned my faith or encouraged me to leave the church over it. And yet, it is the area that I flatly denied church teaching and authority.
My Parish supported me because those who had all of the information didn’t believe that Catholic thought had caught up with the Science or dealt with our specific reality, which was a child who couldn’t live and could kill me. Catholic thought really only deals with babies incompatible with life who pose no risk to the mother, as in cases of anencephaly. But, according to the Church, I had to be literally about to die before the induction would be licit. I didn’t think I needed to risk my life to give a few more weeks in utero to a baby who couldn’t live outside of me. Especially when later would mean more pain and suffering for her. I believed both then and now that allowing her to be born gently and whole was the best for both of us, though the decision broke my heart and has left a wound that will never fully heal.
So, I don’t believe the Church has authority to advise me on that. Nor do I think the Church should be teaching me things that can’t be backed up in Scripture or Christian Tradition. So, am I a Catholic? Even if I love the Church and don’t want to leave? I don’t know.
This was a very emotional post for me to write. One would think that in reading it a sister-in-Christ would be moved perhaps to pray for me, or to write me some words of encouragement. Instead Elena posted this response on her blog:
Some of my readers may remember the tumultuous months of February through May of 2005 on this blog. If you remember this, and this and this, you will probably be interested in this.
I find that I still can’t discuss this without a lot of emotion and I don’t want to stir up any more hostility so I just want to point out three admissions in this post that had they been made back in 2005 probably would have saved a lot of bandwidth, time and energy.
1. Finally an admission that this decision “flatly denied church teaching and authority.”
2. And that the church authorities who were continuously thrust into the discussion as “knowing the whole story,” “didn’t believe that Catholic thought had caught up with the Science or dealt with our specific reality.”
3. Secondary effect didn’t apply here.
I absolutely hold to the belief that the Catholic Church is absolutely right on this issue. Life is a precious gift. It needs to be supported, nurtured and honored. Where there is life, there is hope.
Original post found here.
If anyone saw the compassion in that, and I just missed it, please feel free to let me know. It seems to me that Elena missed the whole point of my post which was my struggle with my faith. Not only that, but she got it wrong. Again.
I’m responding here because I need to put it out there somewhere. I’m still struggling with whether or not I’m a Catholic anymore and it’s posts like those that push me one way, and posts like Doug Phillips that push me the other. I don’t want to follow a faith that has so little real respect for life that they would sacrifice two on the alter of a principle that is supposed to be about preserving and honoring life.
Dear Elena,
I’m so sorry that the death of my baby is such an emotional topic for you. I guess I never considered your feelings about the loss of my daughter. How selfish of me. But it occurs to me that if it’s a difficult topic for you (and Lord knows it is for me) and that you don’t want to stir up hostility (which you did) perhaps you should stop blogging about it. Just a thought.
1. Yes, my induction was against church teaching that says that one must be in immediate danger before ending a pregnancy. My life wasn’t there yet, but if I had waited I could have died. It was also against church teaching because when they deal with poor fetal prognosis, they don’t deal with what that means when it’s also a risk to the mother.
2. Yes, Elena, they didn’t believe that church teaching had caught up to the Science, because it hasn’t. You’re thought on this is a prime example. To you, our induction wasn’t licit because you believe it was just due to Sarah’s fatal prognosis. In fact, it was not. Our decision was based on the danger to me. And Catholic thought hasn’t caught up on that either. Long ago one only knew that the mother’s life was in danger when she was literally about to die. That isn’t the case anymore.
3. Our induction was dealing with secondary effect and your saying that it isn’t is spreading information about me which isn’t true. Our biggest danger was a placenta which didn’t like to stick to the uterine wall. I bled quite a bit in my pregnancy to the point that they told me not to come back to the ER unless it was over a pad an hour. That’s a lot of blood. As the placenta got bigger the danger of hemorrhage would grow. The induction was to remove the danger of hemorrhage, and the loss of Sarah was secondary.
I know that you believe that it is important to shout to the rooftops what you believe to be right, good, and true. But again, I implore you to consider that perhaps it’s equally important to do so with love and genuine concern about the people involved? Jesus may have thrown over the tables of the money-changers in the temple, but those individuals that he knew to be in sin he treated with tenderness, mercy, and compassion. Something I haven’t seen you extend to me through all of this. In fact, the only one you seem to have concern for is Sarah, which I find rather insulting. She was, is, and will always be my daughter, and I guarantee I have more concern for her than you ever could.
There is only one thing I wanted you to learn in all of this. There is right and wrong in the world, but it is far more complex than you ever see. We real human beings live in a world that’s messy and difficult, and we look to God, and to each other to find our way through it. Please I ask that you would consider these words:
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13 (bolding mine)
As I write these words, I feel my own anger and hurt fall away in the knowledge and love of my Savior. Elena, as much as you have tried to tell me what you believe is right, you have done so without love, and become nothing more than a clanging cymbal, or a miserable noise. This isn’t an exercise in theory for me, but my life and my child. I urge you to consider the very real person behind the computer when choosing to write about it, and think, perhaps, of offering ministry to those you seek to educate. Even if you think I’m wrong, am I no more or less a sinner than anyone else, and no less forgiven.
Anne,
Email me privately if you can. Elena spent quite a bit of time tearing me down at my former blog for my stance on not having more children due to our genetic disease (which as you know one of my children was born with a small encephalocele).
She even went so far once to say that I was selfish and all I wanted was a bunch of people to give me an “atta girl” to justify my decision. She also questioned the legitimacy of our medical condition as well.
I don’t want to say much more than that, but I’d love to talk to you privately and relay some info if you’d like to email me.
I’ll e-mail you, Lyndsay. But I’m not surprised. You should have seen the grief she gave Cecily of Uppercase Woman who lost one twin spontaneously, and the other because her blood pressure went so high so fast that she was unconscious and about to stroke when her husband gave permission for the doctor to take the baby to save her life.
Even if what she was saying were truth, without love, it’s nothing.
I’m so sorry for your loss, Anne. I pray that you find more comfort from love in the future.
How rude…I am very sorry.
((hugs))
Anne,
I’m so sorry for what you have gone through. {{hug}}
I have a quote on my sidebar that came after thinking about what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath in Mark 2:27…
“Mankind was not made to serve laws. Laws were made to serve mankind. When we begin to sacrifice people on the altar of the Law, we move from mercy and grace to tyranny and abuse.”
Those who worship at the altar of rules will never have compassion for those whose circumstances places them outside the bounds of those rules. I am not Catholic, but I have attended mass a few times at my local parish and based on what I’ve seen and heard there, I think you would be considered still catholic.
I wish I could truly give you a hug.
Katherine
Good grief.
Who are these people and where do they get off trying to run the lives of other people?
(And why do any of us care what they think)?
Urgh.
As a long time lurker of True Womanhood and this blog (I’ve posted a couple of times, but nothing too seriously) I’ve come to realize that these groups (be it Vision Forum or fundamentalists of some kind) just don’t know how to love or care for fellow Christ followers.
It doesn’t matter that you almost died and it doesn’t matter that you truly grieved for you lost baby all that matters is that they have their own agenda and since you don’t fit that agenda, they try to snuff your feelings as if you are some murderous woman.
Anne, I have never gone through what you have so I don’t know the emotions that go through it, but my heart does grieve for you and I am truly sorry for what you had to go through.
For these people to rub this pain in your face is completely unfair and un-Christlike.
God bless you
Becky
Anne,
I’m very sorry for your loss.
Elena likes to make the blog rounds and pontificate her take on absolute truth re: women’s difficult pregnancies. She raked me over the coals as well after I had Caroline, setting up a special section on her delicious account (if I remember correctly) about my error in having a scheduled c-section because I was way too small to deliver normally. I lost track of how many articles she posted trying to prove I was wrong. Just by examining me over the internet via my blog she knew I would have been able to deliver normally and my own OB who examined me multiple times didn’t. Imagine that! The marvel of the internet. (sarcasm off)
Elena has gained a reputation of being an unkind know-it-all and is unwelcome at many places online. I don’t say that lightly, but I’ve seen it enough to know that it is true.
Just a little background to add to what normalmiddle said.
Hugs,
Sallie
Sallie, thank you so much. I’m glad to know that it’s not just me who sees her in this light. My thoughts toward Elena are not kind, and not charitable, and I’m trying very hard to change them. But it’s difficult when every so often she decides to jab the pin in again.
She finally banned me from posting, so I’ll answer her final charges here, lest anyone thinks I had no answer.
There is no “new and improved version” Elena. Simply the truth as it has always been. But you’ve insisted on making sweeping generalizations and judgments despite my repeatedly telling you that you lacked all the information. But I suppose it’s easier to call me a liar than admit that perhaps you were wrong.
The post where I made that admission was is on a blog I shut down about a month ago, because I am in the process of moving the interesting posts over here. It was never in an attempt to get rid of evidence, as Elena claimed, and the relevent portion is quoted here, in context, unlike on Elena’s blog. There is no attempt to hide anything and I’d be happy to post the entire thing if necessary, but this was the only portion that dealt with Sarah.
I think it’s funny that she keeps posting about me and then when I complain, it’s me who has a persecution complex. But fear not, Elena, I don’t look to you for absolution.
The blood of Christ, shed for me and for you for the absolution of our sins is what I will look to for forgiveness if in fact I did something wrong.
But Elena doesn’t preach forgiveness. Just judgment. How sad.
oh my gracious!
{{{ Anne }}}
The humanistic behavior you experienced at the hands of Elena is terrible! I am so dreadfully sorry you have been subjected to such cruelty.
It sounds as if Elena is sitting on some heavy duty unrighteous anger! How she can put her head on a pillow at night is beyond my comprehension.
I have worked with folks that have Asperger’s disease (one of several conditions involving communication difficulties & poor social interaction); but, I must say, she far exceeds them in inappropriate communication.
{{{ Anne }}}
I have to say that I am stunned & shocked by such behavior.
One Who Has Been Burned:
I’m mom to an Aspie, and a two year old on the Autism Spectrum (though we’re still learning where) and I know exactly what you’re talking about. My Aspie may not understand the proper etiquette when talking to a friend, but he’s not intentionally hurtful.
Anne, thank you so much for permitting your terrible sorrow to be a means of blessing to others. The telling of difficult, painful stories, I’ve learned, is usually a means of blessing, because there is always someone who needs to hear a story if God puts it on our hearts to tell it.
It takes courage, however, and a whole lot of faith in God and in other people. Far too often, other people stomp on us when we tell the truth in love, despising us for reasons only they and God can know.
You seem very wise in recognizing what’s what and who’s who. I just wanted to commend you for letting God grow such wisdom in you.
((((((((Anne))))))))
Anne wrote: “My Aspie may not understand the proper etiquette when talking to a friend, but he’s not intentionally hurtful.”
exactly … to use some old-fashioned terms … my mother would call this intentional hurtful, cruel speech “wicked” especially since it is couched in Christian-ese
{{{ Anne }}}
Ah, Elena. Been there, done that.
I know how cruel and insensitive she is, but after someone kindly pointed out her track record and I was able to see the pattern of her abusive behavior, her particular obsessions and her penchant for creating turmoil and strife, I came to believe she is probably suffering great mental anguish from something she herself must have done related to this topic — a topic she can’t seem to let go. In that light, I feel sorry for her.
However, enjoying driving already emotionally stressed people over the edge seems to give Elena some kind of rush, and that addiction combined with her inability to see others as human beings is potentially quite dangerous. I fear someday she will prey upon someone who is already maxed out emotionally and who doesn’t have a good support system in real life and something terrible will happen.
I am just amazed. I had no idea that Elena had done this to so many people. I was reading a blog post about spiritual abuse last night. Suddenly I realized that it’s exactly what I believe Elena does. She has decided that she is the authority and that she has enough information to make grand sweeping judgments about the lives and decisions of others, condemning those who disagree with her. It’s abusive and wrong.
*edited to fix grammatical error.*
Elena is indeed an abusive woman, Anne, and please don’t for a minute feel guilty about your feelings toward her. Of course God commands us not to hate, but I have seen no hatred in your words and you have every right to be beyond angry. Your wounds are unfathomably deep and for someone to stab them with a hot iron is just…well, let’s just say that if you were a mama bear prodded in such a cruel way, Elena’s loud mouth would no longer be working, now or forevermore.
This caught my eye and I felt the need to point it out. I tried, with all the humility and grace I could muster, to point out to Elena that if she believes that she is right, that she must continue to argue her case with love and thoughtfulness to the feelings of those of us struggling through life.
This is a prime example of her unwillingness or inability to do so.
I can only imagine that the decision not to have more children was one made with a great deal of thought and care, and with the needs of your family and children both present now, and possible in the future, in mind. To think that you would make such a decision or talk about it just to get an “atta girl” and feel righteous in your self is inconceivable.
Elena told me that I simply wanted to terminate my baby and get “warm fuzzies” for it. As if all was well and good and what I really looked forward to was all the fun and attention I’d get. That would be laughable if it weren’t so horribly, sadly, untrue.
There’s no amount of love and support that is going to make it okay to walk out to a plot of land in the middle of Winter with a tiny little casket. No amount of “warm fuzzies” are going to make it fun to watch your baby go into the ground or pick out her headstone.
Over the past few years, I’ve come to a place of peace regarding our decision. I can think of Sarah and smile at the thought of her tiny fingers or how much she looked like Bridget. But the knowledge that our family is missing a little girl who should be running and playing with her sisters and brothers is always going to be there.
To ascribe such motives to people suffering is wholly unfair, and leads me to believe that she lacks genuine love for others and compassion.
Warm Fuzzies? There is absolutely nothing warm and fuzzy about losing a child. And in reference to my situation—there is not an “atta girl!” big enough to ease my now-barren heart, or heal my babies who were too sick to live, or heal my babies who did live, but struggle daily to lead normal lives. And furthermore, an “atta girl” from someone like Elena is worthless to me.
All of this reptitive behavior from her confirms to me she has some serious mental illness that probably needs urgent attention.
I’m sorry Anne. As you can unfortunately see, many of us have had run-ins with Elena.
Anne,
I am so sorry to hear what you have had to deal with.
As if losing a child isn’t bad enough.
Many, many hugs to you, dear sister.
I think Elena needs to go to a Todd Bentley healing session.
How disgusting and infuriating to read what this malicious woman has to say.
I am so sorry, Anne, and all you other ladies, too, that you had to endure insult upon injury. I know you would have given anything to have your baby healthy and whole and brought to full term.
Corrie, right on about the Todd Bentley remark!
Anne, as you see how this woman responds to others, I hope you will take anything else she may have to say with the phrase “consider the source” in mind.
I’ve seen Corrie savaged by hurtful comments, for a period of years, and probabaly a lot of you know to whom I’m referring.
Eventually, the hurt of what this woman said will lose its grip on you, and I pray that it is sooner than later.
“probabaly a lot of you know to whom I’m referring”
I’m guessing one of the VF or LAF folk?
“Elena told me that I simply wanted to terminate my baby and get “warm fuzzies” for it.”
How could anyone say something like that? Sounds like they need some serious lessons in compassion.
I am so sorry that you had to be subjected to those hurtful words!
Jennifer, it wouldn’t be accurate to say that, although this person, online, is sympathetic to LAF and the like.
I said that to remind Anne that there are many out there who have been subjected to very hurtful, public remarks about sensitive things they decided to make public, and Corrie is one of them. At one point she shared some sensitive information about her life and things God has delivered her from, and the information was used against her.
If we care about our online relationships as well as just sharing our thoughts on theology or Christian womanhood online, then these things hurt.
Eventually, what I have seen is what was said above — people who say such things as Elena said, not once, but who show a penchant for saying things like this, are demonstrating a lack of personal maturity, and perhaps they need help for their own problems. Although the “warm fuzzies” comment — just one comment like that makes me wonder about a person’s mental and emotional well-being.
I said that, Lynn, because I know for a fact that one or two of the VF and LAF supporters have attacked Corrie and I wondered if you were speaking of the same person(s).
Probably not.
Since I’m banned from posting on Elena’s blog, I’m putting this here. I know she’s been reading.
You presented my quotes out of context and in a way that was clearly biased. I think clearing that up is justified.
Covered, yes, but with your spin. There was no “freebie” there.
If it’s easier to believe that I’m making things up now than you just never had all the information, I can’t stop you from assuming the worst.
Because this post wasn’t about EIFWAIL, it was about me.
You linked to my website, and quoted me. This wasn’t a post about a theory, it was a post about me. To insinuate otherwise is intellectually dishonest at best. I don’t see why I should just let it be when you’re spreading information about me and my situation that isn’t true.
Yes, Elena, the $20 you sent me was very generous. That’s why I sent you a thank you card. But this wasn’t a simple update of information. It was another chance for you to tell the world that you believed I was wrong. Really, I’ve got it. The world’s got it. You can move on now.
I didn’t make you write about this, Elena. You chose to. I don’t need to smack you over the head with how I think you treated me. I don’t visit your blog anymore and am perfectly content to forget about you. This was a chance for you to beat me over the head with what you think of our decision. And again, really, I’ve got it. You think I’m a murderer and that I took my daughter’s life. Understood.
And when I wouldn’t allow it here, she took it to WWF so that I could be flogged in public.
Pot, meet kettle. Every time you write about our decision with Sarah, you write it so that you can flog me in public. You write on your blog where you can get support from people you care about, and I write on my blog where I can get support from people I care about. As for the public flogging, it seems you’ve brought that upon yourself by taking this dog-with-a-bone act multiple places around the internet and attacking women with whom you disagree.
Well, Elena, while my stubbornness is one of my less attractive qualities, it means that I can hold on just as well as you can. You won’t silence me. You can shout from the rooftops what you think of me, and I’ll keep answering back in my own defense and against the way you do things.
As I’ve stated multiple times with you, even if you think what you’re saying is right, you could say it with more grace. In a way that might actually allow you to reach those to whom you’re speaking. Honestly, I think you prefer to attack and think yourself righteous in the cause than actually reach people for Christ or the Catholic Church.
Revenge? Bitterness? *Sigh*
I don’t need to take revenge on you, Elena.
Yes, I’m bitter about my loss and the run-ins I had with you, because I had considered you a friend and my feelings were terribly hurt by the way you handled your disagreement. So, I stopped reading your blog.
And yes, I think what you do is spiritual abuse. You go after women who are hurting and you hound them in the name of Christ. Perhaps it’s easier to spend your time hunting down the sins of others than confronting your own.
Elena actually had the temerity to suggest that I blackmailed you into inducing labor so that we could remain friends. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to let crap like that go unanswered. And for that, I get banned from her blog. I wear that badge of honor with pride.
So, Elena, I hope you take seriously your promise to “shut the door” on this era and STOP WRITING ABOUT IT!
And for the record, I’m always going to back Anne up where she is right and she is absolutely right here. In the end, I’m not just standing up for her or even for myself… I’m standing for what is right and against what is wrong.
None of this would’ve come to WWF if you hadn’t banned the two of us from your blog where the discourse started. And now, people are coming out of the woodwork with stories of how you have harassed them as well. It sounds to me like you’ve brought that on yourself.
Best of luck to you, Elena, and I can honestly say that I hope I never hear from you again.
Good for you ladies. I’m so glad you’re standing up for yourselves, each other, and what’s right.