Here is a quote from a novel I am currently reading called The Source by James A. Michener:
On this matter the testimony of the Torah was clear. Women under Judaism were treated no worse than Near Eastern women in general: deplored at birth, endured in adolescence, married off as soon as possible, discriminated against in law and subjected to misery if they became unwanted widows. Numerous were the Biblical texts in which some Old Testament hero rejoiced at the news he was the father of a son, and one of the morning prayers recited by men included the passage: “Blessed art Thou , O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a woman.”
The sixty-three tractates of the Talmud developed each of these themes: “Happy is he whose children are male and woe to him whose children are female.” In passage after passage this massive body of Jewish teaching admonished against the dangers of the female… The Talmud specifically directed that women must not be taught to read religious works…
I know that this is not a historical textbook, but I remember hearing somewhere that a daily prayer Jewish men prayed was something like: “I thank the Lord I was not born a Gentile or a woman.” Anyhow, to me all those in the patriarchy crowd like to point back to the good ol’ days when the patriarchs ruled. Hmm… seems to me that those were awful times for women. Why do we want to go back to Abraham’s time?
It was a bad time for women. For men…..
I wonder how they would feel if our roles were reversed. If we wanted them to submit to us, and used scripture to back it up.
Laura Croft wrote: Why do we want to go back to Abraham’s time?
Because it gives Christians the illusion that they can be like God, the Christian way. I believe that they see Jesus as a catalyst that projects them back into the Covenant of Works as defined by Covenant Theology. Through Christ, they can do what Adam could not. Their “new creation” status in Christ some how renders them much like Pelagius saw the fall of man — not really having any long term or permanent effect on them. So I don’t think they even want to go back to Abraham but rather to Adam. Remember that previous thread? We are to go back to our “Adam authority.”
And why would we want the Old Covenant when we are offered a better one? So that man can have the illusion that he is not helplessly dependent on the grace and mercy of a loving God and not on his own strength. It gives the illusion of Christianity yet satisfies the appeal of original sin.
“If we wanted them to submit to us, and used scripture to back it up”
They’d tear the Bible to pieces, whine, complain, and claim that the Bible wasn’t really for all times.
Anne, thanks for stopping by the Bayly’s thread. The comments are now closed, I saw. I’m wondering if they really do buckle under pressure/truth.
I first heard that Jewish prayer in an Erich Segal novel. While the men pray the prayer you quoted, women pray: “Thank you for making me according to thy will.” I wonder what is the explanation for this kind of difference in prayer. Also, they have double the purity days (I am not sure of the right term) if you give birth to a daughter instead of a son. I have always wondered about both.
Hmm… seems to me that those were awful times for women. Why do we want to go back to Abraham’s time?
“WE” don’t. The question is…why does ANYONE want to go back to a time that was awful for women?
The guys over at Bayly’s would probably lose both bladder and bowel control if they ever had to tangle with the Bene Geserit sisterhood…
“On this matter the testimony of the Torah was clear. Women under Judaism were treated no worse than Near Eastern women in general:”
It is not the Torah but the Talmud that taught these horrible things about women.
Talmud states: Better to burn Torah than teach it to a woman.
I think a distinction should be made between the honest observation of events that has been preserved for us in scripture and any *advocacy* of behavior or practices.
I can’t imagine any woman would wish herself back to that time and place in spite of all the opportunity to witness historic events. But, then again, I doubt most men would be much happier. Perhaps it took repressing half the world’s people to make the other half feel good about its collective self.
Anne, thanks for stopping by the Bayly’s thread. The comments are now closed, I saw. I’m wondering if they really do buckle under pressure/truth.
Every time.
They couldn’t stand the heat of difficult questions I asked them a year or so ago, and had to oust Corrie as well because she too asked hard questions. They’ve silenced Suzanne McCarthy (of Better Bibles Blog), Rebecca from Random Musings blog, Cheryl from the Women in Ministry site, and now Molly … I’m sure I’ve left a few out, so my apologies to those fine women. What these women have in common (and I include myself in that group with total humility with them because these women are spiritual giants compared to me) is that they understand scripture, understand the gospel, understand when it’s being perverted, and won’t stay quiet about it.
Someone commented on a Bayly thread recently about “keeping sweet” a la Warren Jeffs. That does seem to be Bayly’s M.O. – he cannot abide a woman disagreeing with him, no matter how respectful and courteous she is. He always ends up telling them to shut up and “keep sweet.”
Okay Greg.
I’ll bite.
Who are the Bene Geserit sisterhood?
Educate me.
Well, yes, the many of the ancient Israelites twisted the Scriptures and added many, many traditions of their own to daily life that God never intended (at least it is not recorded that God intended it, in His Word), and that I speculate led to the corruption within the priesthood. I would never consider all of the Talmud to be “sent from God”, much less go to obscure writings of vain, old men who were not inspired by God, even if they thought they were, for reference concerning how I should live out the Old Testament Laws that we have in the “Christian” Scriptures (as opposed to the Jewish), which we do believe were inspired by God Himself.
I sincerely do not believe that the thoughts presented against women or that are pro-hyper-patriarchical within Jewish writings were typical of the practiced beliefs of the “patiriarchs of old”. There are diverse teachings concerning the Scriptures today, but that does not mean that if certain of those teachings stand the test of time in years to come, that they would be representative of the beliefs of all Christians at the time they were originally written. Likewise I believe we should look at certain writings of the Talmud as not neccessarily representative of the thoughts that everyone had during the “old patriarchal days”.
Hi again, Emily. Are you the one who visited us before?
“Every time.
They couldn’t stand the heat of difficult questions I asked them a year or so ago, and had to oust Corrie as well because she too asked hard questions.”
The poor dears must have anxiety issues when it comes to disagreement; I know I’ve had that before, when possible debate about a heated subject came up. Still, two men of their age buckling: it’s very telling about how much truth they invest in their beliefs. That would definitely explain Tim’s nasty comment to Maggie: he was scared stiff and irritable. They shut down that last thread almost the minute Anne showed up, polite and calm though she was. Gosh, I’d love to see their reaction to my interpretation of Genesis 3:16. Heh
The Bene Geserit sisterhood is from a book called Dune. Its not really related
Mara #11,
The Bene Gesserit are a mythical order of women in novelist Frank Herbert’s Dune series. They are known for their powers of observation and martial fighting skills.
My previous comment was meant entirely as a quip, an attempt to inject humor here. Given the known misogyny of the Baylys under their medieval brand of religion, I thought it would be funny to see a diminutive Bene Gesserit sister clean both their clocks in two shakes of a lamb’s tail.
Greg, with that kind of knowledge of sci-fi, you’re more than welcome here.
Annie, I am by no means a Hebrew scholar, but my understanding of the “purity days” (when a woman was secluded after childbirth) is that they were a kind of maternity leave. If a son were born, the man would, presumably, be pleased and contented, not in a big hurry to try again. If a daughter were born, he might be more inclined to try and get his wife pregnant again as soon as possible to try and have a son. The double length of “unclean” time after the birth of a daughter was not a punishment, but instead protected a wife and allowed her time to heal and recuperate from childbirth. Just my opinion from reading the OT.
Concerning the Bayly threads~
It seems to me that if they wanted to prevent someone from commenting on their blog anymore, they could simply block their IP address (it’s not hard to do). Instead, they choose to close the thread down. What that says to me is that they are more interested in demonstrating a public show of power and authority than they are in keeping any kind of dialogue (even a one sided one) going. It feels like classic narcissism to me.
As to the Talmud and patriocentricity~
Hmm… from what study I have done, it seems that for whatever reason, the rabbis – teachers of the Torah – took a decidedly misogynistic turn around 800 B.C. Then, as English (or other) translations of the Scriptures were created, the translators (many living in cultures that believed in the inherent inferiority of women) turned to these misogynistic writings in order to “understand” the text they were translating. Thus, these misogynistic errors were gladly incorporated into the translations, from the Septuagint and Vulgate, right on down the line to the King James and others in the 19th century. The priests did add much to the Law and Jesus took them to task for it more than once.
Oh, and something else that ties to both the Baylys and this is the doctrine of “divine order of creation.” If what they say is true, that women should be under men, are created less then men because of the order in which God created them, then men should be under animals and subject to them – which is clearly not what God intended, having told Adam to take dominion of them.
Interesting, Kathrine,
So, if authority comes from order of creation it should go: animals, man, woman.
But, God gave man dominion over the animals, so it should now go: man, animals, woman?
If that’s the case our lot is sad indeed.
“It seems to me that if they wanted to prevent someone from commenting on their blog anymore, they could simply block their IP
address (it’s not hard to do).”
That’s what happened to me last time. And why, because I was nice to Anne when she showed up? When I addressed Anne, I used the same address as I did earlier when I asked Tim for his daughter-in-law’s name (though I posted under a nickname then). I hope he doesn’t now think I’m two-faced and have some evil intent; I especially hope he hasn’t bad-mouthed me to his daughter-in-law, as I’d love to talk to her about the poem.
Actually, God told Adam and Eve to take dominion over the animals and the earth and all that was in it – which, interestingly should have included the serpent in the garden, which Adam did not take dominion over or it would not have been doing what it was doing… but that would be a whole other thread.
I see your point, Katherine. =)
Anne~
I sometimes don’t realize that my sarcasm doesn’t translate to the comment (you can’t see my face or hear my tone of voice
). So… as I think you got, my point was that if what they teach about “divine order of creation” is true, then men should be under the dominion of animals, as the animals were created first. That is so patently ridiculous and the ridiculousness that surfaces when the argument is taken to is logical conclusion points to the silliness of the whole “divine order of creation” argument in the first place. =D
Cally Tyrol:
”
“The Bene Geserit sisterhood is from a book called Dune. Its not really related
Greg Anderson:
“The Bene Gesserit are a mythical order of women in novelist Frank Herbert’s Dune series. They are known for their powers of observation and martial fighting skills.
“My previous comment was meant entirely as a quip, an attempt to inject humor here. Given the known misogyny of the Baylys under their medieval brand of religion, I thought it would be funny to see a diminutive Bene Gesserit sister clean both their clocks in two shakes of a lamb’s tail.”
Oooohhh.
You had me going there for a minute. We were talking about Judaism so the natural flow of my brain headed that way.
I thought Bene Gesserit might have been Hebrew. Maybe they were some sort of secret female WWII resistance movement or something that had to do with the Jews returning to their home land.
Rather it’s SF. Never read Dune but did see the Movie many years ago.
The Bene Gesserit were to Dune what Princess Leia was to Star Wars and Eowyn was to LOTR. Except they really might be more easily compared to the Jedi or woodland elves or something.
(Dang, I feel like I’m on a Christian spec. fiction writers/readers loop rather than WWF.)
Mara, I’ll even be so geeky as to admit that four of my five children have LOTR middle names: Piper Arwen, Bridget Eowyn, Ciaran Elessar, and Quinn Eomer. Yes. We’re that geeky. Lucky for my kids I insisted that they be middle names.
You know this “Divine Order” doctrine that the Baylys love so much and the discusion on this site made me think of an old story I heard. I heard it so long ago some of the details escape me so I’ll have to do my best to remember it.
A man had either a dream of heaven or a near death experience. He saw many things but one thing he saw in particular made an impression. Sitting at a meal he thought he recognized one of those waiting on the tables. He asked someone if the waiter was a famous evangelist he knew on earth.
The one who answered him said, “Yes, that’s him.”
The man was shocked, “He was a great man on earth, what is he doing waiting on tables in heaven?”
The one who answered him said, “One thing that evangelist failed to cultivate while he was on earth was the heart of servanthood. He preferred to be waited on. Now he is learning the joy of serving.”
I have not idea if that story is anywhere near true. But it stuck with me because it reflects what Jesus said when he said, “If you would be great in God’s Kingdom then learn to be servant of all.”
Now concerning the Baylys and other men who think women are here to serve them.
I wonder if these men who want to be served by women will have to learn the joys of servanthood by serving women in heaven.
No, I don’t question the Baylys’ salvation. But I do question their motivation. They seem to think that the gospel is to be used for gain by men at the expense of women.
Paul cautioned about using the gospel for personal gain. Money is not the only kind of gain. Position and prestige and the best seats are other kinds of gain.
Now concerning myself. Hopefully I can learn what I need to about the joy of servanthood here on earth.
Okay, Anne, you’ve got me beat on geeky on the LOTR’s side of things. But your admission makes me realize that I have more in common with you and Cally than I originally thought.
Anne, that’s awesome!
I love LOTR names! I’m trying to convince my husband to name a son of ours Peregrin. That would be SO awesome!
Anne, you’re cool.
(as for the Bayly brothers, all I have to say is: ICKY.)
Anne, your kids’ middle names ROCK!!!!
(Dang, I feel like I’m on a Christian spec. fiction writers/readers loop rather than WWF.)
Okay – where do I sign up for the RSS feed on this one? I would love such a thing!
The nerd in me is getting all tingly and everything.
Although, alas, the closest I’ve come to giving my child a name after my geekiness is Lucas. Joseph’s middle name is Lucas.
I was seriously considering Jon Luc, but I didn’t. And, yes, I realize it would be Jean Luc.
Speaking of LOTR–our daughter’s named Elanor.
Richard,
I don’t know if this is what you are looking for.
But here are two places to get you started.
http://csffblogtour.com/
http://specfaith.riterbloc.com/
Richard,
Here’s a couple more places you may like to check out.
http://www.wherethemapends.com/
http://www.marcherlordpress.com/
Out of these four places, there’s got to be something that interests you.
Okay, all you Sci-Fi fanatics, thanks a lot for hijacking this thread!! >:(
JK,
I’m one too.
But, Laura, it’s so thrilling when you find out a group of people that are brought together over one issue share a completely unrelated second common interest.
I am a geek. I can’t help it.
And I love LOTR names, they’re so Welsh and Celtic. I just love them Tolkein had such a creative way with the language.
Laura,
The pleasure was all ours.
Joanna, you wouldn’t be Catholic by any chance would you?
Debra, Welsh and Celtic, just like me. =) My maiden name is Welsh (the original spelling was Cydwg) and then there are good English names like Potter and Round and Dunning. There’s Irish there somewhere also. And on my mother’s side there’s the Scottish with the Stewart family. But I identify most strongly with my Welsh heritage. I spent time in Wales in my teens and totally fell in love with the green of the land and the lilting vowels of the accents.
“Joanna, you wouldn’t be Catholic by any chance would you?”
Nope, dyed-in-the-wool presbyterian.
Just a Tolkien fanatic! I actually was really disappointed when I heard the movies were coming out (I like them now) because I knew that “everybody” would call themselves Tolkien fans, even if they had never even cracked open The Hobbit. 
Sorry, I just actually know a Joanna with a daughter named Elanor. Too funny!
Mara – thanks for those links. These sites look great. I want to step into the header photo on Christian Science Fiction & Fantasy Blog Tour and explore.
Regarding the second common interest – I’ve noticed recently the amazing accuracy of the phrase “birds of a feather flock together.” It seems that folks with a few common interests turn out to share many, many common interests. There’s always the exception to the rule, but overall it seems to be the case.
I love the fact that there are so many sci-fi fans here. I’ve always considered that mainly a man’s domain (not because women are barred, but because they usually seem to be uninterested). I’m glad to find out that’s not true. I was also pleased to read some Monty Python quotes a month or so ago. That was another arena I thought was exclusively male. Glad to know it’s not.
I can’t claim to have named any children after fantasy or sci fi characters…
But I did have a cat who was named Romana. A few years after she died, we got another cat which we named Romana II.
And if you know THAT reference, you REALLY qualify as a sci-fi geek.
Liz, I’m a big Dr. Who fan. LOL
Richard, I think there’s a larger female population in geekdom, fandom, than people realize. We have a large local sci-fi/fantasy convention near here and there are tons of women there and who are on the panels as well. It’s such an indulgence to go and basically talk about all my geeky passions for a whole weekend. =)
Liz, I’m too young to be more than passingly familiar with the old series, but I can still catch a reference or two
Do you watch the new series? And/or have you seen The Sarah Jane Adventures? TSJA is really marketed to children, but Elizabeth Sladen does such a great job, and K9! Oh, I love K9.
*sigh* I feel so left out! I’m a librarian for crying out loud (okay, finishing my Masters’ degree, but I’ve still worked in libraries for the years after college), and I’ve NEVER read LOTR or Harry Potter series.
Can I still come to this site and play? *Grins* I need to read those books – my adviser is just SHOCKED that I haven’t read any of them. The Hobbit cartoon movie always scared me as a child, so I got turned off to Sci-fi, but I really want to give it another go…any suggestions?
Andrea, I can’t claim to be too young to be familiar with the old series, but at least I can claim that I saw the 1970′s Tom Baker shows on PBS…in the mid/late 1980s!
I love the new series, especially David Tennant. Cutest geek ever. Fortunately my husband agrees, in a purely platonic way, of course.
Sarah Jane Adventures seemed a fairly good series, especially for it’s target audience, but I think it’s misplaced here in the US on SciFi Channel. Nick or Disney would be more along the lines of its targeted audience.
I always did love Elizabeth Sladen, and seeing Sarah Jane’s growth as a character between the old series and the current shows has been wonderful.
Ladies, while we’re on the topic of series heroines and all that, I’d like to ask if any of you know anything about a much older heroine: Elsie Dinsmore. She’s been promoted by the VF: typical, since I hear she’s abused in the stories by her father and witheringly submits and welts under his fist. Even a year before I ever heard of the VF, though, a fifteen-year-old girl I’m good friends with just happened to bring Elsie up on my Amazon review for “Fascinating Womanhood”, saying that Elsie was a sick story. If anyone and everyone knows anything about this series, please tell!
Thanks
Anne – I’d love to see you at one of those conventions. I bet that’s fun. Do you dress up ever? I’m getting pictures in my head of the people at the convention in Galaxy Quest.
I’d like to point out that I have a quote from Zeddicus Z’ul Zorander on my blog. It’s not sci-fi, but fantasy qualifies too, right?
Andrea – for movies, I’d recommend the LOTR trilogy, although they are intense. A good bit more intense than the Hobbit cartoon.
For books, I’d recommend … the LOTR trilogy.
Okay – I’ll also add C.S. Lewis’s Peralandra and the others in that series.
For Fantasy, my two favorites were Princess Bride, by William Goldman (yes, that Princess Bride – the book blows the movie away and is the funniest thing I’ve ever read) and Eyes of the Dragon, by Stephen King. Even though Stephen King is known as a horror fiction writer, his one venture into the Fantasy genre was outstanding and was targeted at a younger audience so it is not so gory and profane as his horror books.
Robert Silverberg wrote some great sci-fi. And H.P. Lovecraft wrote some great sci-fi/fantasy.
Andrea – For a bit of light entertainment in the Fantasy genre, I’d recommend the animated movie Kiki’s Delivery Service. My son loves this movie and my wife and I have learned to really enjoy it as well. It’s a good story and a lot of fun. (As long as you don’t have a problem with stories that involve witches.)
And I forgot earlier to mention the Harry Potter books. J.K. Rowling is a master story teller and these books are truly outstanding. If you read them from the beginning, you’ll get hooked and develop an emotional tie with the characters and by the end you’ll be hanging on every word. You’ll be angry with J.K. Rowling at times and singing her praises at other times. Sometimes those two different things will be simultaneous. It is my favorite book series ever.
Guys-Elsie Dinsmore, please!
Oh yes, and regarding Stephen King’s “Eyes of the Dragon”, I’ve been wondering this for weeks: are there any actual dragons in the darn book??
Elsie Dinsmore is a favorite of VF. The series is 28 books long and covers the life of beautiful (think golden curls and rosy cheeks) Elsie Dinsmore, a Southern heiress. The first book starts out when she’s eight years old and her father has come to take custody of her (she’s lived with her grandparents all her life, since her father was 18 when she was born). My word, so it suddenly occurs to me that he was only 28 when the book starts – whoa.
Anyhow, Elsie is this weepily pious little child who can’t say boo to a goose. When her cousin messes up her penmanship, she takes the blame, she gives in to her little cousin Enna, etc… Her father isn’t a Christian, however, so they clash over a few things, however much Elsie wants to obey him. He asks her to play a piano piece that isn’t a hymn on the sabbath, which she refuses to do. The same for a non-Christian book. As a result, he punishes her by going away and leaving her with her grandparents, threatening her that if she doesn’t promise to always obey, she’ll get sent to a Catholic school (shock, horror!) that she’d rather die than go to.
In the end, of course, there is a near-death scene and he repents and becomes a Christian and begs her forgiveness and all that sort of dribble. And she miraculously recovers…
As I said, it covers all of her life, from childhood to when she gets married, to bearing children and her grandchildren…
One of the things I found icky about the books is how intimate her relationship is with her father. You could probably almost call it emotional incest (as I think Cynthia has called similiar parent/child relationships). She adores him and hangs on his every word. And although he does remarry and she marries when she grows up (her father best friend, btw, ICK!), their relationship does remain a focus. I even read, in a biography about the author, I believe, that the reason why *SPOILER* the author killed off Elsie’s husband so early in the series was because the focus from the beginning was on her and her father’s relationship.
Stuff like: sitting on her father’s lap when she herself is a grandmother (yuck). Submitting to his authority when she is a widowed woman and has many children and grandchildren. His comments on how beautiful she is, yet still when she is a grandmother. It was just…ugh.
Of course, when I was into the series, it didn’t click with me. It really honestly didn’t.
Other problems I had with the series where how Elsie’s step-grandchildren were treated (mostly by her father), how her son treated his child-wife (he married her when she was 15, I believe, intentions were to protect her since she had no relatives left in the world, so I can’t say his intentions were entirely impure there) and more.
Then there’s the small problem of racism, which was realistic for the time period, but hard for me to stomach. Elsie makes comments about how slaves don’t know any better and aren’t as godly as white people. And although the books are definitely anti-KKK, there were stereotypes and comments that ruffled my feathers.
So, all in all, I can’t say I’m too crazy about the series. I do wish I had kept them for reference rather than throwing them out…at one point I had 24 out of the 28 books! *blushes* What a waste of money…
Oh my, I’m a little out of my element. Started Potter but DH was upset I was reading it, so took it back. We didn’t name any of our kids after literary characters, but I did once have a cat named Lucy Maude and a dog, Ginger, and another cat, Pickles. Our veterinarian was the only one who ever got it.
” What that says to me is that they are more interested in demonstrating a public show of power and authority than they are in keeping any kind of dialogue (even a one sided one) going. It feels like classic narcissism to me.”
Kathrine,
Bingo!
After my husband spoke with Tim via the phone in order to put pressure on Tim to be a man and back up his slanderously false public accusations against me, Tim wrote to me and told me that he will moderate me for my own good. I still have all the old private email. It is a hoot. The exchange on his blog is a record of how wrong he was in what he accused me of. He told my husband via the phone that he overreacted the way he did because the guys from the CCC-Forum at Yahoo gossiped to him about me when they saw I posted. I didn’t have a chance.
You see, Tim knows better than me and my husband because he views himself as the guardian of all things biblical. He is accountable to no one and people must recognize his office on his blog, especially women. A woman’s tone must be one of deference to his station as a pastor. And, being so sensitive to any sort of disagreement, tone is something that is completely subject to his ego.
He isn’t moderating me for my own good and protection. It is for his own good because I made too much sense and he falsely accused me of saying things “so evil in their opposition” to the Bible.
What he did to Light is disgusting and what he has done to every other intelligent, godly woman since then has been shameful.
If we were back a few hundred years ago, he would have had us all burning at the stake for “witchcraft” all because we dared to question or disagree with his “doctrine of sexuality”.
He views his so-called “authority” as being binding over all and he uses his blog to flex his “authority” over others, esp. women.
But, I do not recognize his authority. Not because I am pro-homosexual marriage and pro-female ordination but because the only authority a person has comes from the Word of God and true authority does not behave like Tim does. He rams his “doctrine of sexuality” down everyone’s throats and inserts it in every situation, even when it makes no sense.
Van Vonderan’s book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, has an excellent chapter on how to distinguish true authority.
I love the new series, especially David Tennant. Cutest geek ever.
Yes! Yes, he is. Every time he grabs at his hair and does his “oh! OH! OH!” bit I just grin like an idiot. The scene in the Agatha Christie ep where he eats the cyanide is just priceless, possibly one of my favourites.
Wow yes, SciFi’s not maybe such a great channel for Sarah Jane … they probably air them here on CBBCK (Canadian BBCKids) but I haven’t checked to make sure.
The Hobbit cartoon movie always scared me as a child
Andrea, me too! I tried watching it when I was seven or so, and I couldn’t, I just couldn’t. I haven’t read or watched LoTR either, actually. I also had nightmares after I watched that creepy puppet type film, The Dark Crystal. I honestly don’t consider myself a huge sci fi fan, Doctor Who is about the limit for me, and even then my very favourite episodes are when they go back in time. I do like a bit more when it comes to fantasy, the Narnia books and films especially; The Princess Bride, as I think Richard already said, is also a really great film.
Kes, thank you SO much for the info. I’m glad Elsie’s father repented, but really: how gross! And giving in to bullies?? Yes, what a Christian girl, and how surprising that the idiotic VF huffily said, in their book description, “Feminists won’t be happy with Elsie. She’s a Christian who works through authority structures.” In other words: it’s Godly to be a little doormat and obey Daddy no matter what. I swear, not even the Botkins are this sick (though I can see them sitting in their father’s lap). This tells daughters the same stuff that “Created to be His Helpmeet” tells wives: submission and gentleness will win abusive men over. The author is just sick; I can’t believe how she eliminated characters to keep Elsie dependent on her father!!
“Stuff like: sitting on her father’s lap when she herself is a grandmother (yuck). Submitting to his authority when she is a widowed woman and has many children and grandchildren.”
That is so cloyingly sick. If grandmother-hood doesn’t save a daughter from a yicky dependence and an emotionally dependent yoke to her father, nothing will.
I wonder what Presbytery his church is part of, and if they are aware of his demeanor towards professing brothers and sisters in Christ? Perhaps it is time his Presbytery was made aware.
Although I don’t hold out hope that that will do any good. The new pastor at a PCA church in my area was found to have plagiarized over 1/3 of his dissertation, and there were no disciplinary measure or repercussions at all, just a verbal slap in the wrist.
I’m sorry, Anne2, that your husband didn’t want you to read Harry Potter. He doesn’t know what you’re missing.
My son is not named after any Tolkein characters, but I’ve had some cool pet names. Betsy Ross was the worst behaved dog we ever had, and it quite concerned me about this famous historic woman. Eohippus Fungi was another one of my dogs (named after a prehistoric horse that was supposedly the size of a weiner dog – second name, of course, being a plural plant that feeds off of another plant). And my most famous dog, Zaphod Beeblebrox, may have been named after a character some of you may know. but if you do know who Zaphod Beeblebrox is, I am quite concerned about your taste in literature. And would recommend that you read Dirk Gently next – it’s almost as good as the five-book Hitchhiker trilogy.
Richard~
Hmm.. I would be hard pressed to say which was better – Hitchhiker’s Guide or Dirk Gently. You could name your next pet Svlad Cjelli. I think I may just like Dirk Gently better…..
As for harry Potter, the books are very well worth the read. The are (IMO) some pretty profound spiritual truths conveyed therein.
Corrie~
Hmm… I’m not surprised at the way they treated you. Yeah, much I could say, but I will be nice.
Anne: “Sorry, I just actually know a Joanna with a daughter named Elanor. Too funny!”
Elanor with an A? Aww, I thought I was the only one!
Elanor with an A. She’s a LOTR fan, too. =)
As I asked earlier: Richard (or anyone who knows), does King’s book “Eyes of the Dragon” feture any actual dragons(s)??
Thanks!
I’m sorry, Jennifer – I didn’t notice your question on this. Yes, it does actually have real dragons in it. And, as always, Stephen King develops the dragon personna very well.
No problem, Richard. And thanks!! Alright, I can’t wait; I’d been hoping to add that book to my dragon art collection, but I had to make sure there were actual dragons first and, inspite of all my “Search inside this Book” perusing on the Amazon website, I couldn’t find what I was looking for. The only drawback now is the horrible part when one of the princes kills that poor dog; I’ll have to white that part out, I can’t stand cruelty to animals..
Oh, I knew why I liked you guys the minute I found this blog; it’s because we share an interest in sci-fi and fantasy . . . it’s a real home from home!
Perelandra trilogy – great: I loved it. LOTR and HP – love those too, and Star Trek. Galaxy Quest had me almost crying with laughter; the Alan Rickman character is so funny.
(CS Lewis had his down side too though – has anyone read a story of his called ‘The Shoddy Lands’? It’s a ‘dream sequence’ story about a narrator who finds himself in a strange country where some things he sees are crystal clear and others blurred. Gradually he realises he is in the mind of a woman . . . Go read it if you want a new take on a celebrated author!)
As for Elsie Dinsmore:
VF may sell the (modified) books, but if you read between the lines not all the hyper-pats like her because despite her piety she is both deceitful and manipulative and also a bit of a spoiled brat: issues that come to mind are:
*I’ve read an article taking issue with Martha Finlay’s portrayal of Elsie as more righteous than her father in that she is a ‘better Christian’ than she is (when she refuses to read other than a religious book to him on the Sabbath she is setting herself up against his authority: anathema to the uber-pats)
*when her cousin is trying to get money out of her she does not tell her father because she thinks it would be better not to (and she rationalises her deceitfulness as not causing him to worry or become angry: this is not the example uber-pats want for their daughters)
*when she’s approached by a really bad guy whom her revengeful cousin has sicced onto her so he can get to her money another way, she doesn’t tell her father she’s fallen in love with him (definitely not in line with biblical courtship)
*when she finally does get married she’s not the maternal stereotype that they want for example she spends weeks in bed after the birth of her first child and is not allowed to lift it for six weeks (quite common in women in those days who suffered a prolapse after childbirth – all that pushing from a flat on the bed position and unskilled doctors)
*she and her husband are conveniently out of the country for the entire Civil War period, so they don’t suffer other than vicariously through the illness poverty and death of their nastier and less shining example relatives back home, nor do they suffer the miseries of the reconstruction period after the war but indeed remain filthy rich throughout the series – dripping with diamonds in fact
As for the incest motif. that too is quite sickening – her father is kissing her ‘ruby lips’ and caressing her on his knee until, as someone mentioned, she’s a grandmother, which she is at the age of about 34 . . .
However, the books that are on sale at VF are not the originals by Martha Finlay which you can read online at Project Gutenberg, they are sanitised, cleaned up children’s versions, with the lives of Elsie, and her daughter Violet packaged into neat little homilies to promote the patriarchal theme.
The real books project an extremely disturbing image of father daughter relationships, and one that is repeated down the generations. It is quite clear from Elsie’s husband’s early death that he was simply a convenient way of producing another generation for Finlay to write about. She obviously had real issues with emotional abuse between a father and daughter.
Dragon fans – have you read the Anne McCaffrey Dragonflight books? Or Jane Yolen’s Dragon’s Blood series?
I love the Anne McCaffrey Pern books. I just bought my son the first one.
I haven’t read the Dragon’s Blood series, but I’ll have to look into it.
I was wondering if anyone was going to mention McCaffrey’s Pern books. I love the older ones, not so much for the dragon angle, but for the way she creates such a rich culture. I’m not crazy about the newer ones authored by her son Todd.
Hmm… on the subject on dragon stories, I do like the Pern stories, but one of my favorites is the original Dragonlance series – 2 trilogies – Chronicles and Legends. They really grab you and well, I would recommend them if you like fantasy and dragons and elves and epic tales and such.
Concerning “the Shoddy Lands” by Lewis, I haven’t heard of it and I am a Lewis fan. I would be interested to know when in his life he wrote it as he was, by his own admission in his autobiography, a but of a snot in his younger years…
In my effort to avoid cleaning the house this morning, I feel obliged (as perhaps the rare Jew visiting this site
, to reply to the posting.
I’m definitely a secular Jew, by the way, and I haven’t been to Temple in a trillion years, but there is a less hostile interpretation of this – according to my childhood Rabbi:
“Blessed art Thou , O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has not made me a woman.”
The reason is because in the eyes of God, women have the tougher job. Men don’t have to suffer in childbirth. This is one reason that while the Talmud is littered with patriarchy (and I’m not going to say that there aren’t the exact same abusive patterns of behavior in patriarchal Jewish relationships as in Christian ones), there is some evidence that women do seem to have the upper hand in relationships with Jews – or, as a friend of mine used to say, I want to marry a Jewish guy. They let you have a maid. [Joke]
In my culture, the mothers were a lot stronger than the fathers. Mine certainly was. Also, you’re a Jew if your mother is Jewish – if your father is Jewish, you’re out of luck. This does seem to point to the general sense of Matriarchy in the culture. For example, the humorous fiction of Sholom Aleichem (the source of Fiddler on the Roof) concerns men who claim to be in “charge” of their women, yet the women ALWAYS get their way. And marriage is looked at as a partnership.
*Ahem. Carry on with book talk*